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Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
21. Maybe when the right wingers on the Court are removed, we'll revisit this w/o the NRA up their ass.
Sun Jun 10, 2012, 08:43 PM
Jun 2012

Stevens, J., dissenting

SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA, et al., PETITIONERS v.
DICK ANTHONY HELLER

on writ of certiorari to the united states court ofappeals for the district of columbia circuit

[June 26, 2008]

Justice Stevens, with whom Justice Souter, Justice Ginsburg, and Justice Breyer join, dissenting.

The question presented by this case is not whether the Second Amendment protects a “collective right” or an “individual right.” Surely it protects a right that can be enforced by individuals. But a conclusion that the Second Amendment protects an individual right does not tell us anything about the scope of that right.

Guns are used to hunt, for self-defense, to commit crimes, for sporting activities, and to perform military duties. The Second Amendment plainly does not protect the right to use a gun to rob a bank; it is equally clear that it does encompass the right to use weapons for certain military purposes. Whether it also protects the right to possess and use guns for nonmilitary purposes like hunting and personal self-defense is the question presented by this case. The text of the Amendment, its history, and our decision in United States v. Miller, 307 U. S. 174 (1939) , provide a clear answer to that question.

The Second Amendment was adopted to protect the right of the people of each of the several States to maintain a well-regulated militia. It was a response to concerns raised during the ratification of the Constitution that the power of Congress to disarm the state militias and create a national standing army posed an intolerable threat to the sovereignty of the several States. Neither the text of the Amendment nor the arguments advanced by its proponents evidenced the slightest interest in limiting any legislature’s authority to regulate private civilian uses of firearms. Specifically, there is no indication that the Framers of the Amendment intended to enshrine the common-law right of self-defense in the Constitution.

. . . . . .Miller, 307 U. S., at 178 The view of the Amendment we took in Miller—that it protects the right to keep and bear arms for certain military purposes, but that it does not curtail the Legislature’s power to regulate the nonmilitary use and ownership of weapons—is both the most natural reading of the Amendment’s text and the interpretation most faithful to the history of its adoption.

Since our decision in Miller, hundreds of judges have relied on the view of the Amendment we endorsed there;2 we ourselves affirmed it in 1980. See Lewis v. United States, 445 U. S. 55 , n. 8 (1980).3 No new evidence has surfaced since 1980 supporting the view that the Amendment was intended to curtail the power of Congress to regulate civilian use or misuse of weapons. Indeed, a review of the drafting history of the Amendment demonstrates that its Framers rejected proposals that would have broadened its coverage to include such uses.

The opinion the Court announces today fails to identify any new evidence supporting the view that the Amendment was intended to limit the power of Congress to regulate civilian uses of weapons. Unable to point to any such evidence, the Court stakes its holding on a strained and unpersuasive reading of the Amendment’s text; significantly different provisions in the 1689 English Bill of Rights, and in various 19th-century State Constitutions; postenactment commentary that was available to the Court when it decided Miller; and, ultimately, a feeble attempt to distinguish Miller that places more emphasis on the Court’s decisional process than on the reasoning in the opinion itself.

Even if the textual and historical arguments on both sides of the issue were evenly balanced, respect for the well-settled views of all of our predecessors on this Court, and for the rule of law itself, see Mitchell v. W. T. Grant Co., 416 U. S. 600, 636 (1974) (Stewart, J., dissenting), would prevent most jurists from endorsing such a dramatic upheaval in the law.4 As Justice Cardozo observed years ago, the “labor of judges would be increased almost to the breaking point if every past decision could be reopened in every case, and one could not lay one’s own course of bricks on the secure foundation of the courses laid by others who had gone before him.” The Nature of the Judicial Process 149 (1921).

In this dissent I shall first explain why our decision in Miller was faithful to the text of the Second Amendment and the purposes revealed in its drafting history. I shall then comment on the postratification history of the Amendment, which makes abundantly clear that the Amendment should not be interpreted as limiting the authority of Congress to regulate the use or possession of firearms for purely civilian purposes.

The text of the Second Amendment is brief. It provides: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

Three portions of that text merit special focus: the introductory language defining the Amendment’s purpose, the class of persons encompassed within its reach, and the unitary nature of the right that it protects.

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State”

The preamble to the Second Amendment makes three important points. It identifies the preservation of the militia as the Amendment’s purpose; it explains that the militia is necessary to the security of a free State; and it recognizes that the militia must be “well regulated.” In all three respects it is comparable to provisions in several State Declarations of Rights that were adopted roughly contemporaneously with the Declaration of Independence.5 Those state provisions highlight the importance members of the founding generation attached to the maintenance of state militias; they also underscore the profound fear shared by many in that era of the dangers posed by standing armies.6 While the need for state militias has not been a matter of significant public interest for almost two centuries, that fact should not obscure the contemporary concerns that animated the Framers.

The parallels between the Second Amendment and these state declarations, and the Second Amendment ’s omission of any statement of purpose related to the right to use firearms for hunting or personal self-defense, is especially striking in light of the fact that the Declarations of Rights of Pennsylvania and Vermont did expresslyprotect such civilian uses at the time. Article XIII of Pennsylvania’s 1776 Declaration of Rights announced that “the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state,” 1 Schwartz 266 (emphasis added); §43 of the Declaration assured that “the inhabitants of this state shall have the liberty to fowl and hunt in seasonable times on the lands they hold, and on all other lands therein not inclosed,” id., at 274. And Article XV of the 1777 Vermont Declaration of Rights guaranteed “[t]hat the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State.” Id., at 324 (emphasis added). The contrast between those two declarations and the Second Amendment reinforces the clear statement of purpose announced in the Amendment’s preamble. It confirms that the Framers’ single-minded focus in crafting the constitutional guarantee “to keep and bear arms” was on military uses of firearms, which they viewed in the context of service in state militias.

The preamble thus both sets forth the object of the Amendment and informs the meaning of the remainder of its text. Such text should not be treated as mere surplusage, for “t cannot be presumed that any clause in the constitution is intended to be without effect.” Marbury v. Madison, 1 Cranch 137, 174 (1803).

The Court today tries to denigrate the importance of this clause of the Amendment by beginning its analysis with the Amendment’s operative provision and returning to the preamble merely “to ensure that our reading of the operative clause is consistent with the announced purpose.” Ante, at 5. That is not how this Court ordinarily reads such texts, and it is not how the preamble would have been viewed at the time the Amendment was adopted. While the Court makes the novel suggestion that it need only find some “logical connection” between the preamble and the operative provision, it does acknowledge that a prefatory clause may resolve an ambiguity in the text. Ante, at 4.7 Without identifying any language in the text that even mentions civilian uses of firearms, the Court proceeds to “find” its preferred reading in what is at best an ambiguous text, and then concludes that its reading is not foreclosed by the preamble. Perhaps the Court’s approach to the text is acceptable advocacy, but it is surely an unusual approach for judges to follow.

“The right of the people”

The centerpiece of the Court’s textual argument is its insistence that the words “the people” as used in the Second Amendment must have the same meaning, and protect the same class of individuals, as when they are used in the First and Fourth Amendment s. According to the Court, in all three provisions—as well as the Constitution’s preamble, section 2 of Article I, and the Tenth Amendment —“the term unambiguously refers to all members of the political community, not an unspecified subset.” Ante, at 6. But the Court itself reads the Second Amendment to protect a “subset” significantly narrower than the class of persons protected by the First and Fourth Amendment s; when it finally drills down on the substantive meaning of the Second Amendment , the Court limits the protected class to “law-abiding, responsible citizens,” ante, at 63. But the class of persons protected by the First and Fourth Amendment s is not so limited; for even felons (and presumably irresponsible citizens as well) may invoke the protections of those constitutional provisions. The Court offers no way to harmonize its conflicting pronouncements.

The Court also overlooks the significance of the way the Framers used the phrase “the people” in these constitutional provisions. In the First Amendment , no words define the class of individuals entitled to speak, to publish, or to worship; in that Amendment it is only the right peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, that is described as a right of “the people.” These rights contemplate collective action. While the right peaceably to assemble protects the individual rights of those persons participating in the assembly, its concern is with action engaged in by members of a group, rather than any single individual. Likewise, although the act of petitioning the Government is a right that can be exercised by individuals, it is primarily collective in nature. For if they are to be effective, petitions must involve groups of individuals acting in concert.

Similarly, the words “the people” in the Second Amendment refer back to the object announced in the Amendment’s preamble. They remind us that it is the collective action of individuals having a duty to serve in the militia that the text directly protects and, perhaps more importantly, that the ultimate purpose of the Amendment was to protect the States’ share of the divided sovereignty created by the Constitution.

As used in the Fourth Amendment , “the people” describes the class of persons protected from unreasonable searches and seizures by Government officials. It is true that the Fourth Amendment describes a right that need not be exercised in any collective sense. But that observation does not settle the meaning of the phrase “the people” when used in the Second Amendment . For, as we have seen, the phrase means something quite different in the Petition and Assembly Clauses of the First Amendment . Although the abstract definition of the phrase “the people” could carry the same meaning in the Second Amendment as in the Fourth Amendment , the preamble of the Second Amendment suggests that the uses of the phrase in the First and Second Amendment s are the same in referring to a collective activity. By way of contrast, the Fourth Amendment describes a right against governmental interference rather than an affirmative right to engage in protected conduct, and so refers to a right to protect a purely individual interest. As used in the Second Amendment , the words “the people” do not enlarge the right to keep and bear arms to encompass use or ownership of weapons outside the context of service in a well-regulated militia.

“To keep and bear Arms”

Although the Court’s discussion of these words treats them as two “phrases”—as if they read “to keep” and “to bear”—they describe a unitary right: to possess arms if needed for military purposes and to use them in conjunction with military activities.

As a threshold matter, it is worth pausing to note an oddity in the Court’s interpretation of “to keep and bear arms.” Unlike the Court of Appeals, the Court does not read that phrase to create a right to possess arms for “lawful, private purposes.” Parker v. District of Columbia, 478 F. 3d 370, 382 (CADC 2007). Instead, the Court limits the Amendment’s protection to the right “to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation.” Ante, at 19. No party or amicus urged this interpretation; the Court appears to have fashioned it out of whole cloth. But although this novel limitation lacks support in the text of the Amendment, the Amendment’s text does justify a different limitation: the “right to keep and bear arms” protects only a right to possess and use firearms in connection with service in a state-organized militia.

The term “bear arms” is a familiar idiom; when used unadorned by any additional words, its meaning is “to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight.” 1 Oxford English Dictionary 634 (2d ed. 1989). It is derived from the Latin arma ferre, which, translated literally, means “to bear [ferre] war equipment [arma].” Brief for Professors of Linguistics and English as Amici Curiae 19. One 18th-century dictionary defined “arms” as “weapons of offence, or armour of defence,” 1 S. Johnson, A Dictionary of theEnglish Language(1755), and another contemporaneous source explained that “y arms, we understand those instruments of offence generally made use of in war; such as firearms, swords, & c. By weapons, we more particularly mean instruments of other kinds (exclusive of fire-arms), made use of as offensive, on special occasions.” 1 J. Trusler, The Distinction Between Words Esteemed Synonymous in the English Language37 (1794).8 Had the Framers wished to expand the meaning of the phrase “bear arms” to encompass civilian possession and use, they could have done so by the addition of phrases such as “for the defense of themselves,” as was done in the Pennsylvania and Vermont Declarations of Rights. The unmodified use of “bear arms,” by contrast, refers most naturally to a military purpose, as evidenced by its use in literally dozens of contemporary texts.9 The absence of any reference to civilian uses of weapons tailors the text of the Amendment to the purpose identified in its preamble.10 But when discussing these words, the Court simply ignores the preamble.

The Court argues that a “qualifying phrase that contradicts the word or phrase it modifies is unknown this side of the looking glass.” Ante, at 15. But this fundamentally fails to grasp the point. The stand-alone phrase “bear arms” most naturally conveys a military meaning unless the addition of a qualifying phrase signals that a different meaning is intended. When, as in this case, there is no such qualifier, the most natural meaning is the military one; and, in the absence of any qualifier, it is all the more appropriate to look to the preamble to confirm the natural meaning of the text.11 The Court’s objection is particularly puzzling in light of its own contention that the addition of the modifier “against” changes the meaning of “bear arms.” Compare ante, at 10 (defining “bear arms” to mean “carrying [a weapon] for a particular purpose—confrontation”), with ante, at 12 (“The phrase ‘bear Arms’ also had at the time of the founding an idiomatic meaning that was significantly different from its natural meaning: to serve as a soldier, do military service, fight or to wage war. But it unequivocally bore that idiomatic meaning only when followed by the preposition ‘against.’ ” (citations and some internal quotation marks omitted)).

The Amendment’s use of the term “keep” in no way contradicts the military meaning conveyed by the phrase “bear arms” and the Amendment’s preamble. To the contrary, a number of state militia laws in effect at the time of the Second Amendment ’s drafting used the term “keep” to describe the requirement that militia members store their arms at their homes, ready to be used for service when necessary. The Virginia military law, for example, ordered that “every one of the said officers, non-commissioned officers, and privates, shall constantly keep the aforesaid arms, accoutrements, and ammunition, ready to be produced whenever called for by his commanding officer.” Act for Regulating and Disciplining the Militia, 1785 Va. Acts ch. 1, §3, p. 2 (emphasis added).12 “[K]eep and bear arms” thus perfectly describes the responsibilities of a framing-era militia member.

This reading is confirmed by the fact that the clause protects only one right, rather than two. It does not describe a right “to keep arms” and a separate right “to bear arms.” Rather, the single right that it does describe is both a duty and a right to have arms available and ready for military service, and to use them for military purposes when necessary.13 Different language surely would have been used to protect nonmilitary use and possession of weapons from regulation if such an intent had played any role in the drafting of the Amendment.

* * *

____________________


Those who are not throwing up by now, may read the whole work at http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZD.html

Hopefully the 5 right wing Justices will fade away in time, unless the NRA, right wing gun groups, right wing gun owners, and the like keep bigoted, callous, right wingers in office.

Trash the whole thing if you ditch the one that matters. ileus Jun 2012 #1
Not necessarily about RKBA but Churchill said discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #3
The RKBA is an extension... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #2
Of course it belongs. Blanks Jun 2012 #4
Welcome to DU discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #5
Do you belong to a well regulated militia. GeorgeGist Jun 2012 #34
membership in one was never required gejohnston Jun 2012 #37
Two of them sarisataka Jun 2012 #42
I belong to the well regulated militia of my castle. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #50
I am a member of the unorganized militia (read: people) of Maryland Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #55
I'm definitely unorganized. nt Remmah2 Jun 2012 #59
Who makes up the Militia? ileus Jun 2012 #60
I know, I know SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #61
ding ding ding...we have a winner. Either way the people have the RKBA. ileus Jun 2012 #64
So do I get a prize for the winning answer? nt SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #66
I can mail you some mining stickers... ileus Jun 2012 #75
Naw thats ok SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #76
Didn't the first militia of this country (colonial) fight *against* the government (British)? Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2012 #146
Depends on what you wish to call the first militia... sarisataka Jun 2012 #147
Not anymore. I was in the army. Blanks Jun 2012 #84
I'm willing to bet money you're still legally in at least two militias n/t Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #85
Why is 'well-regulated militia' in the 2nd amendment? Blanks Jun 2012 #86
There's room for disagreement on that, Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #87
I disagree. Blanks Jun 2012 #107
Those rights belonged to the states and people, anyway Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #108
I never said they were protecting a subset Blanks Jun 2012 #109
Ah, pardon my assumption. Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #112
It is my own interpretation.... Blanks Jun 2012 #115
Oh, there are definitely exceptions. Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #117
It is not a qualifier, it is one reason for existence. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #88
It isn't a qualifier. Go back and study English grammar. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #102
Perhaps qualifier isn't the best word Blanks Jun 2012 #104
All nine... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #105
Do Collectives, like corporations have rights? Blanks Jun 2012 #106
I hesitate... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #111
Don't bongbong Jun 2012 #114
Name one. gejohnston Jun 2012 #118
rofl bongbong Jun 2012 #120
name one liberal position in gejohnston Jun 2012 #123
So list all those cases so we can see the strength of your argument. nt hack89 Jun 2012 #122
One of the many articles gun-religionists hate bongbong Jun 2012 #125
An article on the racist and Republican roots of gun control? hack89 Jun 2012 #126
Thanks sarisataka Jun 2012 #127
Selective reading bongbong Jun 2012 #132
But we were discussing legal precedent hack89 Jun 2012 #133
Glad we don't fail you, but I'm more delighted that you fail yourself aikoaiko Jun 2012 #143
LOL bongbong Jun 2012 #164
Conservatives/Liberals discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #165
wow SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #128
LOL bongbong Jun 2012 #131
Can you be anymore ridiculous? SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #134
So have you posted any SCOTUS rulings that say the 2A SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #140
How so? gejohnston Jun 2012 #129
"The fear inspired by black people with guns also led the United States Congress to consider new gun hack89 Jun 2012 #135
"Republicans in California eagerly supported increased gun control." nt hack89 Jun 2012 #136
"Gun-control measures, like many other laws, were used to oppress African Americans." nt hack89 Jun 2012 #137
That's literally the entire story of MD gun control n/t Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #141
"The most infamous of these disarmament posses, of course, was the Ku Klux Klan." nt hack89 Jun 2012 #138
North sought to reaffirm the freedmen’s constitutional rights, including their right to possess guns hack89 Jun 2012 #139
Sure era veteran Jun 2012 #6
It is part of our Constitution, as are the other parts of the Bill of Rights. kestrel91316 Jun 2012 #7
That's fair. I'd argue that limitations on any enumerated right in the BoR should petronius Jun 2012 #39
But before we can discuss such restrictions, we have to agree on the intent of the amendment. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #89
No. The second amendment is obsolete and the wording needs to be removed Gman Jun 2012 #8
We still have people. nt rrneck Jun 2012 #9
We still have people?? Gman Jun 2012 #28
*sigh* rrneck Jun 2012 #32
I happen to agree, we need to ditch any mention of militia, so it's clear for everyone. ileus Jun 2012 #41
They'll figure it out soon enough rrneck Jun 2012 #54
I disagree gejohnston Jun 2012 #10
If you feel that strongly about it, then start a drive to ammend the US Constitution. SlimJimmy Jun 2012 #11
"feel that strongly about it"? Gman Jun 2012 #27
Oh I don't know gejohnston Jun 2012 #30
Seems you don't understand the diference... Clames Jun 2012 #49
"Gun nuts generally are not literate enough to understand the written word" Spoonman Jun 2012 #74
When you write that an amendment to the US Constitution is *obsolete*, that's an extremely SlimJimmy Jun 2012 #130
So you jump from one amendment to the entire constitution Gman Jun 2012 #142
What's the point of having a Constitution, then? Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #144
I'll bet you long for the days of Prohibition Gman Jun 2012 #151
Hehe, look up the origin of the "Free State" nickname Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #153
One amendment or the entire Constitution is the same. You really are a one trick pony. SlimJimmy Jun 2012 #145
What a travesty that they repealed the 18th Gman Jun 2012 #150
Repealing part of the Constitution is one thing -- violating it is another Glaug-Eldare Jun 2012 #154
The important difference sarisataka Jun 2012 #156
And the 2nd could be repealed the same way Gman Jun 2012 #160
You are correct sarisataka Jun 2012 #161
Since the 2A is protection of personal rights, any attempt... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #162
Invoking the old Chinese curse sarisataka Jun 2012 #163
As I said earlier, if you don't like the 2nd amendment, then work to repeal it. It worked out well SlimJimmy Jun 2012 #158
What do you think the National Guard IS? nt TheWraith Jun 2012 #29
People, as in Private Citizens, make up The National Guard and the US Armed Forces Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #52
If a Guard member had to supply his own musket Gman Jun 2012 #69
But in Switzerland gejohnston Jun 2012 #70
The 2 A says the people have the right to keep and bear sarisataka Jun 2012 #71
fail. but, whatever. sell your own soul if it makes you happy. liberty for me. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #81
Good grief Gman Jun 2012 #152
oh dear. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #155
This, of course, is PRECISELY why the right to keep and bear arms was reserved to the PEOPLE. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #90
I say 'Yes', for two reasons: first, I think the Framers had it right when petronius Jun 2012 #12
Where's our resident SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #13
perhaps discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #15
LOL! bongbong Jun 2012 #65
Your whole argument has been proven bullshit SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #67
LOL indeed bongbong Jun 2012 #113
There was not SCOTUS that said gejohnston Jun 2012 #119
Nope bongbong Jun 2012 #121
that is not an answer. gejohnston Jun 2012 #124
And just who is the Govt.? SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #68
In this description of the militia... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #83
Finally SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #17
yw Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #53
If I said, "I'm completely out of soda, I'm going to the store." Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #92
While I am not personally a huge fan of gun ownership, SheilaT Jun 2012 #14
Agreed discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #20
Exellent post SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #22
Add to your quotes about constitutions safeinOhio Jun 2012 #16
How could my pale understanding... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #18
Agreed, and safeinOhio Jun 2012 #23
Prefatory clause or not, "people" are "people." LAGC Jun 2012 #19
does the prefatory Oneka Jun 2012 #44
It qualifies it and gives it boundaries. safeinOhio Jun 2012 #57
It has one boundary: the people. AtheistCrusader Jun 2012 #63
Another constitutional point with a prefatory clause. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #93
Maybe when the right wingers on the Court are removed, we'll revisit this w/o the NRA up their ass. Hoyt Jun 2012 #21
Your dream of the SCOTUS SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #24
So "loathe" that they overturned precedent in this case. Besides, every case is a bit different. Hoyt Jun 2012 #80
Dream on Hoyt, Dream on SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #82
Name one liberal on that court. gejohnston Jun 2012 #25
Thank you, very sincerely :) discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #72
I genuinely appreciate your polite tone. n/t Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2012 #148
You're welcome discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #149
Even Stevens agrees that the second amendment is an individual right. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #94
Yeah, you might have a right to keep one gun in a safe at home if in a Hoyt Jun 2012 #98
it is one sentence. gejohnston Jun 2012 #99
You need to look a little closer at the grammatical structure. Hoyt Jun 2012 #100
it explains the reason gejohnston Jun 2012 #103
I believe it specifically states armS. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #101
Constitutional Topic: The Second Amendment Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #26
If properly interpreted as the anachronism it is. Loudly Jun 2012 #31
Instead of talking about the injustice of the 2ND Amendment SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #33
That's like circulating a petition against Jim Crow in 1955 Alabama. Loudly Jun 2012 #35
Nice try Shares SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #36
If I was the age I am now at the time of Plessy v. Ferguson Loudly Jun 2012 #38
Again, nice try Shares SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #40
Your argument for needing a gun or claiming an imaginary right to posses one Loudly Jun 2012 #43
Ok... sarisataka Jun 2012 #45
Guns as a solution to guns Loudly Jun 2012 #48
Guns as a tool for self defense SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #51
I thought the nation was moving forward sarisataka Jun 2012 #56
You do realize that is a classic empty cliche talking point. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #79
Weapons have been a solution to weapons for all of recorded history. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #96
Another classic Shares meme. Straw Man Jun 2012 #110
That gun violence that has declined to historic lows? hack89 Jun 2012 #46
Yeah, we might be approaching the tipping point of not having any violent crime. LOL Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #97
My imaginary right to posses one SGMRTDARMY Jun 2012 #47
"Rushing towards the tipping point of gun violence"? The FBI disagrees with you, Shares: friendly_iconoclast Jun 2012 #91
The modernity shuffle. beevul Jun 2012 #116
Since the 2A... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #78
How is it an anachronism? Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #95
The Constitution is a delicate balance. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #58
Some people forget;... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #62
Some forget and some have never learned. nt Remmah2 Jun 2012 #73
Yeah; sad. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #77
BREAKING: Part of the US Constitution declared to be UNCONSTITUTIONAL... cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #157
+1 SlimJimmy Jun 2012 #159
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