In the discussion thread: Pistol grips on long guns, and rifle crime in general. [View all]
Response to ellisonz (Reply #175)
Mon Jan 16, 2012, 01:59 AM
Euromutt (6,506 posts)
235. A couple of observations re: claims on your part
Now that sales are booming, it's only logical that in time those guns will find their way into criminal hands, and then be put to criminal use.
It's only logical if you assume the premise--one you have not bothered to state--that use of firearms in crime is a supply-driven phenomenon, rather than a demand-driven one. Here's the crux of the matter: we're not talking about rifles; we're talking about assault weapons.
The term "assault weapon," as used in this context, is an exercise in "framing the debate." Prior to the mid-1980s, the term "assault weapon" had one meaning: a weapon usable by infantry to breach or neutralize enemy fortifications, such as satchel charges, Bangalore torpedoes, flamethrowers, and rocket launchers. As applied to individual weapons, including small arms, the term has no single established meaning that is both comprehensive and exclusive, and is therefore in effect meaningless. As a rule of thumb, a so-called "assault weapon" is a semi-auto-only version of a design originally capable of automatic fire. That includes weapons like Remington's R-15 and R-25, which, despite meeting the definition of "assault weapon" under California's Roberti-Roos Act, are most assuredly hunting rifles. They meet this definition because the Californian definition includes any rifle (there's that word again) that uses a semi-automatic action, a detachable magazine, and one or more cosmetic features such as a pistol grip, folding or telescoping stock, grenade launcher spigot, bayonet lug etc. That means that weapons like the M1 and M1A1 carbines are, in their original configuration, "assault weapons." It also means that the M1 Garand rifle is not an "assault weapon" because it has a non-pistol grip stock and uses an en bloc clip in a fixed magazine. But during WWII, the Garand was the weapon issued to infantrymen who were expected to inflict casualties upon the enemy, whereas the carbines were made as self-defense weapons for military support personnel such as radio operators, truck drivers, supply clerks etc. And since we are ultimately talking about pistol grips in this thread, it's worth remarking that there's an increasing number of shotguns configured for hunting wild turkey that come with pistol grip stocks, such as this Remington 870, some of these Mossberg 535s, or these Benellis. Unlike in wingshooting (at birds in flight), turkey hunting requires aiming rather than pointing the shotgun, and for that, a pistol grip stock is a better option. Re: your quotes... Tell the FDR one to Eleanor Roosevelt, who evidently trusted sufficiently in the value of a revolver for self-defense to carry one with her when she went to lend support to the civil rights movement in the 1950s. As for Warren Burger, who gives a fuck what he thought? The SCOTUS made some good calls while he was Chief Justice, but almost invariably in spite of his opinion, not because of it. Burger tried to overturn Roe v. Wade in 1986 (Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists); he voted in favor of maintaining laws prohibiting sodomy in Bowers v. Hardwick (also 1986); and he originally intended to vote in Nixon's favor in United States v. Nixon (1974). So Burger wasn't a proponent of the Second Amendment; neither was Nixon, who was not only of Quaker descent, but--let's face it--wasn't too keen on the rest of the Bill of Rights either. It just goes to show that "Republican" is not synonymous with "pro-gun rights." |
Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
![]() |
Author | Time | Post |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | OP | |
Simo 1939_1940 | Jan 2012 | #1 | |
ileus | Jan 2012 | #2 | |
Tuesday Afternoon | Jan 2012 | #4 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #3 | |
DonP | Jan 2012 | #5 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #21 | |
Simo 1939_1940 | Jan 2012 | #12 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #19 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #25 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #81 | |
Simo 1939_1940 | Jan 2012 | #119 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #135 | |
Atypical Liberal | Jan 2012 | #51 | |
SteveW | Jan 2012 | #72 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #83 | |
DragonBorn | Jan 2012 | #221 | |
oneshooter | Jan 2012 | #224 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #6 | |
DonP | Jan 2012 | #7 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #15 | |
ileus | Jan 2012 | #50 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #10 | |
ManiacJoe | Jan 2012 | #14 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #23 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #16 | |
discntnt_irny_srcsm | Jan 2012 | #66 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #22 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #70 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #89 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #91 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #115 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #213 | |
Post removed | Jan 2012 | #219 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #220 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #223 | |
oneshooter | Jan 2012 | #225 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #228 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #230 | |
Straw Man | Jan 2012 | #232 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #233 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Jan 2012 | #234 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #136 | |
YllwFvr | Jan 2012 | #198 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #121 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #137 | |
Tuesday Afternoon | Jan 2012 | #152 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #154 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #155 | |
Post removed | Jan 2012 | #222 | |
ileus | Jan 2012 | #49 | |
oneshooter | Jan 2012 | #118 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #156 | |
Atypical Liberal | Jan 2012 | #59 | |
SteveW | Jan 2012 | #73 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #87 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #90 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #95 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #98 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #107 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #109 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #110 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #151 | |
mvccd1000 | Jan 2012 | #173 | |
PavePusher | Jan 2012 | #189 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #138 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #149 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #187 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #197 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #200 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #204 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #205 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #208 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #211 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #215 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #216 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #231 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #158 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #159 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #172 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #177 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #178 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #180 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #183 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #184 | |
iverglas | Jan 2012 | #114 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #117 | |
iverglas | Jan 2012 | #124 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #128 | |
iverglas | Jan 2012 | #148 | |
mvccd1000 | Jan 2012 | #174 | |
DissedByBush | Jan 2012 | #126 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #179 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #181 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #182 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #185 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #8 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #26 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #28 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #30 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #32 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #37 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #45 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #48 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #125 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #161 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #47 | |
discntnt_irny_srcsm | Jan 2012 | #67 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #165 | |
discntnt_irny_srcsm | Jan 2012 | #186 | |
discntnt_irny_srcsm | Jan 2012 | #188 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #192 | |
discntnt_irny_srcsm | Jan 2012 | #193 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #34 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #36 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #52 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #57 | |
Atypical Liberal | Jan 2012 | #62 | |
Union Scribe | Jan 2012 | #130 | |
Simo 1939_1940 | Jan 2012 | #133 | |
Atypical Liberal | Jan 2012 | #60 | |
SteveW | Jan 2012 | #74 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #140 | |
rl6214 | Jan 2012 | #160 | |
my boy x dog | Jan 2012 | #9 | |
Lint Head | Jan 2012 | #11 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #38 | |
Lint Head | Jan 2012 | #227 | |
DissedByBush | Jan 2012 | #127 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #13 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #17 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #24 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #27 | |
krispos42 | Jan 2012 | #35 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #40 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #42 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #43 | |
beevul | Jan 2012 | #44 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #68 | |
Atypical Liberal | Jan 2012 | #69 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #77 | |
Atypical Liberal | Jan 2012 | #79 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #141 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #144 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #145 | |
PavePusher | Jan 2012 | #191 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #194 | |
PavePusher | Jan 2012 | #199 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #202 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #201 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #203 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #206 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #209 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #212 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #214 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #217 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #218 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #226 | |
SteveW | Jan 2012 | #76 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #46 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #146 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #166 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #175 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #176 | |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Euromutt | Jan 2012 | #235 |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #236 | |
Euromutt | Jan 2012 | #238 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #240 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Jan 2012 | #239 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #241 | |
TheWraith | Jan 2012 | #78 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #80 | |
TheWraith | Jan 2012 | #84 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #85 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #92 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #93 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #99 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #100 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #102 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #103 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #105 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #106 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #111 | |
killer angel | Jan 2012 | #195 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #112 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #116 | |
moriah | Jan 2012 | #157 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #162 | |
moriah | Jan 2012 | #164 | |
The Doctor. | Jan 2012 | #169 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #153 | |
AtheistCrusader | Jan 2012 | #237 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #245 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #143 | |
TheWraith | Jan 2012 | #96 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #139 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #94 | |
DonP | Jan 2012 | #101 | |
krispos42 | Jan 2012 | #82 | |
Simo 1939_1940 | Jan 2012 | #242 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #58 | |
DissedByBush | Jan 2012 | #131 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #171 | |
JustABozoOnThisBus | Jan 2012 | #56 | |
oneshooter | Jan 2012 | #120 | |
DonP | Jan 2012 | #61 | |
spin | Jan 2012 | #18 | |
Union Scribe | Jan 2012 | #20 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #29 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #31 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #33 | |
Hoyt | Jan 2012 | #39 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #54 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #142 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #170 | |
Wistful Vista | Jan 2012 | #229 | |
era veteran | Jan 2012 | #41 | |
JustABozoOnThisBus | Jan 2012 | #53 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #88 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #104 | |
oneshooter | Jan 2012 | #123 | |
JustABozoOnThisBus | Jan 2012 | #55 | |
X_Digger | Jan 2012 | #63 | |
montanto | Jan 2012 | #64 | |
Glassunion | Jan 2012 | #65 | |
SteveW | Jan 2012 | #71 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #150 | |
friendly_iconoclast | Jan 2012 | #163 | |
DonP | Jan 2012 | #190 | |
SteveW | Jan 2012 | #196 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #75 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #86 | |
gejohnston | Jan 2012 | #97 | |
DissedByBush | Jan 2012 | #134 | |
E6-B | Jan 2012 | #167 | |
We_Have_A_Problem | Jan 2012 | #207 | |
Union Scribe | Jan 2012 | #129 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #147 | |
Post removed | Jan 2012 | #168 | |
Post removed | Jan 2012 | #132 | |
Glassunion | Jan 2012 | #108 | |
benEzra | Jan 2012 | #243 | |
PavePusher | Jan 2012 | #246 | |
Glassunion | Jan 2012 | #247 | |
PavePusher | Jan 2012 | #248 | |
OneTenthofOnePercent | Jan 2012 | #113 | |
DissedByBush | Jan 2012 | #122 | |
ellisonz | Jan 2012 | #210 | |
ileus | Jan 2012 | #244 |
Edit History
Please login to view edit histories.