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Gun Control & RKBA
In reply to the discussion: Pistol grips on long guns, and rifle crime in general. [View all]Euromutt
(6,506 posts)235. A couple of observations re: claims on your part
Now that sales are booming, it's only logical that in time those guns will find their way into criminal hands, and then be put to criminal use.
It's only logical if you assume the premise--one you have not bothered to state--that use of firearms in crime is a supply-driven phenomenon, rather than a demand-driven one.
Here's the crux of the matter: we're not talking about rifles; we're talking about assault weapons.
The term "assault weapon," as used in this context, is an exercise in "framing the debate." Prior to the mid-1980s, the term "assault weapon" had one meaning: a weapon usable by infantry to breach or neutralize enemy fortifications, such as satchel charges, Bangalore torpedoes, flamethrowers, and rocket launchers. As applied to individual weapons, including small arms, the term has no single established meaning that is both comprehensive and exclusive, and is therefore in effect meaningless.
As a rule of thumb, a so-called "assault weapon" is a semi-auto-only version of a design originally capable of automatic fire. That includes weapons like Remington's R-15 and R-25, which, despite meeting the definition of "assault weapon" under California's Roberti-Roos Act, are most assuredly hunting rifles. They meet this definition because the Californian definition includes any rifle (there's that word again) that uses a semi-automatic action, a detachable magazine, and one or more cosmetic features such as a pistol grip, folding or telescoping stock, grenade launcher spigot, bayonet lug etc. That means that weapons like the M1 and M1A1 carbines are, in their original configuration, "assault weapons." It also means that the M1 Garand rifle is not an "assault weapon" because it has a non-pistol grip stock and uses an en bloc clip in a fixed magazine. But during WWII, the Garand was the weapon issued to infantrymen who were expected to inflict casualties upon the enemy, whereas the carbines were made as self-defense weapons for military support personnel such as radio operators, truck drivers, supply clerks etc.
And since we are ultimately talking about pistol grips in this thread, it's worth remarking that there's an increasing number of shotguns configured for hunting wild turkey that come with pistol grip stocks, such as this Remington 870, some of these Mossberg 535s, or these Benellis. Unlike in wingshooting (at birds in flight), turkey hunting requires aiming rather than pointing the shotgun, and for that, a pistol grip stock is a better option.
Re: your quotes...
Tell the FDR one to Eleanor Roosevelt, who evidently trusted sufficiently in the value of a revolver for self-defense to carry one with her when she went to lend support to the civil rights movement in the 1950s.
As for Warren Burger, who gives a fuck what he thought? The SCOTUS made some good calls while he was Chief Justice, but almost invariably in spite of his opinion, not because of it. Burger tried to overturn Roe v. Wade in 1986 (Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists); he voted in favor of maintaining laws prohibiting sodomy in Bowers v. Hardwick (also 1986); and he originally intended to vote in Nixon's favor in United States v. Nixon (1974). So Burger wasn't a proponent of the Second Amendment; neither was Nixon, who was not only of Quaker descent, but--let's face it--wasn't too keen on the rest of the Bill of Rights either. It just goes to show that "Republican" is not synonymous with "pro-gun rights."
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Pistol grips on any long gun are much more comfortable, especially for women.
Tuesday Afternoon
Jan 2012
#4
That's what I say when I'm too ashamed to say "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts"
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#135
Intentionally or unintentionally not showing the side with the stock folded against it?
rl6214
Jan 2012
#10
Yes. Underfolders are slow to deploy and a bit of a pain for that reason, though.
benEzra
Jan 2012
#23
It's understandable that one might get that impression from the "fear sells" media...
benEzra
Jan 2012
#22
'ze Germans' would be carrying automatics in this case. His guns are no match.
The Doctor.
Jan 2012
#89
Let me remind you what the gun control lobby *used* to say about Title 1 rifles like mine.
benEzra
Jan 2012
#136
death spewer toter -- I may have to make that my new sigline -- wonder how well that would go over
Tuesday Afternoon
Jan 2012
#152
"It can certainly be characterized as 'hysterical', though I'll leave out the gender aspect of it."
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#90
"It can certainly be characterized as 'hysterical', though I'll leave out the gender aspect of it."
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#109
Like I said, you were fishing for excuses to avoid a substantive challenge.
The Doctor.
Jan 2012
#110
When you call people and/or their tools "death-spewers", you are accusing them of homocidal intent
PavePusher
Jan 2012
#189
Debating you is like debating a dining room table, I have no further interest in doing it. n/t
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#215
Didn't I see something like that in a post that he was going to post it as his sig line
rl6214
Jan 2012
#185
Doncha know those against pistol grips don't care how uncomfortable it is to shoot without one
rl6214
Jan 2012
#8
I have no real problem with most people having a gun at home. But, not so much, in public.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#161
If you can't define a problem then it indicates you don't understand the problem.
Atypical Liberal
Jan 2012
#62
I don't get it...why are you so opposed to people defending themselves against thugs?
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#140
I carried a shotgun around with a sawed off stock when someone was stalking and tried
Lint Head
Jan 2012
#11
I hear you on stalker. On pistol grip, it's kind of like some folks recommend maturbation
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#38
They're virtually the same in those circumstances, pistol grip or straight stock.
X_Digger
Jan 2012
#27
Well, I just took you at your word, it's my usual MO. I'm new here but not to the world.
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#145
"You also frequently seem to completely misunderstand what should have been crystal clear."
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#214
"Please tell me why someone should be allowed to own half-a-dozen handguns with little oversight."
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#239
Well I hope that one day soon these military grade weapons will be severely restricted...
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#85
All guns or their antecedents, save for a few target guns / bench competition guns..
X_Digger
Jan 2012
#99
Have you considered that there are other standards of lethality than ballistics? n/t
ellisonz
Jan 2012
#103
Which of course explains why they are used in less than 3% of all homicides committed with firearms.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2012
#237
Except you are very insistently confusing NON-military-grade weapons with actual
benEzra
Jan 2012
#139
It appears that some people think abysmal ignorance of a subject is somehow a progressive value?
DonP
Jan 2012
#101
Well, if an armed citizen can't figure out and shoot the right person in a milling panicked, crowd..
krispos42
Jan 2012
#82
That is and he is. The Browning BAR was designed as a "keep their heads down"
oneshooter
Jan 2012
#120
If you really think you need a bayonet, you should talk to a medical professional IMlayO.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#39
Why should he need a medical professional when you're right here on the scene?
Wistful Vista
Jan 2012
#142
I shot a muzzle loader for the first time last weeked (obviously, no pistol grip)...
OneTenthofOnePercent
Jan 2012
#113
Isn't it great seeing fun guns being accepted by common shooters across America.
ileus
Jan 2012
#244