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Religion
In reply to the discussion: Agnostic atheism: a reasonable position on spiritual matters, or the only reasonable position... [View all]"Maybe a more assertive position would be a simple refusal to believe or disbelieve in matters of a deity"
Belief or disbelief in a deity are irrelevant to whether you are an agnostic. Doesn't have one single thing to do with agnosticism. I know many agnostic theists and many agnostic atheists. Those two things are completely and totally decoupled.
Agnosticism is a belief about the nature of deity according to how it is defined and described (regardless of whether that entity being described is real or fictional), not about the existence of deity.
And to continue on since your comment seemed to imply it, atheism is not disbelief in said existence. It is lack of belief, which is significantly different. Agnosticism is not the neutral ground between theism and atheism because there is no ground whatsoever to occupy between theism and atheism. They describe a binary solution set. You either possess a belief that a deity exists, or you do not possess that belief. It's just that simple.
People who try to claim otherwise almost inevitably end up being person 2 in the following conversation:
Person 1: "So are you a theist or an atheist?"
Person 2: "I'm an agnostic."
Person 1: "Ummm... ok. But are you a theist or an atheist?"
Person 2: "Neither, I'm an agnostic."
Person 1: "Those have nothing to do with each other, that's like saying 'neither, I'm an accountant'. Do you believe a deity exists?"
Person 2: "I don't know."
Person 1: "What do you mean you don't know? How can you not know?"
Person 2: "Nobody really knows if a deity exists."
Person 1: "I agree. But I didn't ask you 'Does a deity exist?'. I asked you "DO YOU BELIEVE a deity exists?'"
Person 2: "I said I don't know!"
Person 1: "When you were answering the wrong question. How can you not know if you have a belief? I'm asking you about the content of your own thoughts, how can you not know the content of your own thoughts? That's the one thing in the entire universe you should have no problem having knowledge of. Do you have multiple personalities and you think one of the other ones might be hiding a belief in a deity from the rest of your personalities or something???? Because otherwise yes you do know."
Person 2: "Well what if I'm just not sure? A person can't just be not sure?"
Person 1: "Of course they can. But I didn't ask you if you were sure either. Theism isn't being SURE God exists and atheism isn't being SURE God doesn't. Belief has nothing to do with surety. You either have a belief or you don't. Do you have a belief that a deity exist?"
Person 2: "I don't know!"
Person 1: "Oh FFS..."
Etc, etc, with Person 2 consistently refusing to answer a simple yes/no question that there's no way they don't actually know the answer to... because they rather transparently only desire to avoid being identified as belonging to either group.
I have had the above conversation more times than I care to count, and it always goes almost the exact same way...
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Agnostic atheism: a reasonable position on spiritual matters, or the only reasonable position... [View all]
Htom Sirveaux
Jul 2014
OP
The point is that usually even our "supernatural" God is said to effect visible material things
Brettongarcia
Jul 2014
#27
It may be more a piece of exploring one's identity. Sexual identity and religious preference
pinto
Jul 2014
#15
No. I choose to let people call themselves whatever it is they prefer. And I'll follow their lead.
pinto
Jul 2014
#21
As a general rule, I agree that people's self-definitions should be respected.
Htom Sirveaux
Jul 2014
#23
My statement was meant for both believers and non-believers. Sorry if that was not clear.
cbayer
Jul 2014
#26
No, but I can find you lots of definitions of agnosticism that sees it as a stand
cbayer
Jul 2014
#68
But I do that all the time. You just refuse to acknowledge it because it doesn't fit into your
cbayer
Jul 2014
#82
Agnosticism is a good default position. Until evidence begins to pile up against religion
Brettongarcia
Jul 2014
#31
I meant it in the sense of "I don't know". Which I think is a common default position.
pinto
Jul 2014
#49
? Doesn't it mean "not knowing"? Or acknowledging doubt, uncertainty, or perhaps disinterest?
pinto
Jul 2014
#51
OK. I'm an agnostic, not out of ignorance or irrationality, but out of a reasoned point of view.
pinto
Jul 2014
#56
Some people are really invested in evading the question of whether or not god exists.
AtheistCrusader
Jul 2014
#73
While you can make the argument that atheism is just a passive non-position, the
cbayer
Jul 2014
#111
To me, the knowing would trump believing. Believing would be unnecessary if you knew.
Demit
Jul 2014
#98