Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Religion

Showing Original Post only (View all)

Htom Sirveaux

(1,242 posts)
Fri Nov 10, 2017, 07:12 PM Nov 2017

Let's talk about free will. [View all]

It's possibly the most popular response to the Problem of Evil, and it's recently popped up in a couple of discussions in this forum (and no doubt in others that I haven't seen). Briefly, the idea is that the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God allows suffering and/or evil (that he could and would want to prevent, otherwise) because doing so is the price of granting humans free will. Free will is necessary for them to be moral agents. The ability to choose implies the ability to choose wrongly, and at least some humans will inevitably do so. The alternative is thought to be for God to have created robots who would always choose correctly, at the price of rendering the action of obeying God meaningless. Philosophers have debated free will for centuries: whether it exists, how it relates to scientific law and history, and so on.

I'd like to focus on the theological consequences of this doctrine. As previously stated, I'm discussing the "omnimax" God of classic theism: all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, unchanging, simple, eternal, perfect creator. The concept of free will is commonly thought to conflict with both God's knowledge and God's power. If God knows which decision I will make before I exist to participate in said decision, then the decision has nothing to do with my choice or action. Therefore, it seems that genuine free will must limit God's knowledge to that which exists, with the results of free will choices deemed not to exist yet (this is commonly called "open theism" ). Furthermore, if my decision really is free, then it is under my control, not God's. But that means that I have some power that God does not, and God's power is accordingly limited.

But further consequences follow, and here is where things can get really problematic: the doctrine of divine simplicity means that God is not made of parts (this part is his power, that part is his omniscience, etc). God isn't divisible because divisibility implies time and space; different locations, different times. God transcends the time and space he created, so he transcends those differences. Therefore, his power, his knowledge, his very existence: all the same thing. To limit one is to limit all. God then becomes a finite, limited being who has not always existed (his existence has been limited just as his power, knowledge, etc.), and is himself in need of a creator. But the very necessity of invoking God as creator was to limit an infinite regress, and that limit has just been nullified.

And more still. Another traditional way of talking about God is to call him the necessary being: an entity that cannot fail to exist, the uncaused cause. That's how the infinite regress I just referred to was stopped. But if humans are the ultimate authors of their actions, then *they are necessary beings* (their actions are contingent on them, and the chain stops there). We just said that necessary beings cannot fail to exist, they are uncaused causes. Humans, as necessary beings, would have always existed, and not needed a creator. This may be the path to the doctrine of reincarnation and karma: every human being has always existed in one form or another, with the nature of the form dependent on previous actions, all of which each of us is ultimately and solely responsible for.

One way or another, belief in free will seems to point away from the omnimax God as creator.

70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Let's talk about free will. [View all] Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 OP
I think that there can be an omnimax creator and free will. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #1
But can it fill that need without contradicting its own nature: power, knowledge, etc.? (nt) Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #3
Yes of course, an all powerful God gives us the gift of free will. So that souls may evolve, learn. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #10
Can God do evil? Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #11
No of course not. But S/He will let others do evil as part of their soul journey. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #21
But what of the people who suffer evil. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #53
This is a difficult topic. Eastern religions suggest karma, and pre-birth agreements. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #55
How did you come to your knowledge Lordquinton Nov 2017 #65
Extensive reading and studying. And some of it I don't know where it comes from. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #68
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." yallerdawg Nov 2017 #16
God makes choices, allows us to make choices. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #24
First I think you have to prove god............... Angry Dragon Nov 2017 #2
I do, personally? Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #4
Someone has to prove god to have an arguement Angry Dragon Nov 2017 #6
One thing I have never understood, why is there a need to prove God exists? Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #26
thanks for clearly expressing the standard abrahamic god concept. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #5
Maybe the nature of "God" PoindexterOglethorpe Nov 2017 #7
We need Him to come off the beach and save our bacon on this planet. :) Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #25
According to the Bible, God does not always allow Mariana Nov 2017 #8
You have essentially defined, or created if you will, a deity for yourself. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #9
If we cannot reason about the creator, Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #12
Humans can freely speculate, but I feel that we can never "know". guillaumeb Nov 2017 #13
But isn't the inference that the existence of the universe Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #14
It is an unprovable belief. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #15
What is the value of that belief? Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #17
I believe that there is a Creator. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #18
Can we speculate, though? Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #19
I do not think either approach is wrong. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #23
We can speculate, but we are limited by our human consciousness. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #31
I think the limits of human consciousness and knowledge do prevent us from understanding Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #34
Nice points, and we agree that our limitations prevent us from guillaumeb Nov 2017 #41
Yes I agree. We are not able to grasp the whole picture. Just bits and pieces. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #45
Science and rationality go hand in hand with a belief is a supreme being. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #22
Have any other faiths/paths/perspectives done a better job Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #27
Yes indeed. The eastern religious do a much better job of explaining Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #28
That's where I thought you might be going with this. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #29
Not just Hinduism, but Buddhism, Shinto, Confucianism. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #30
I've been very focused on Catholicism. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #32
Yes I can see why. Aquinas wrote about reason and theology. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #33
I think God has chosen to be enigmatic for a reason. We will never prove God's existence. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #35
The line of thought we are discussing leads to Geneva Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #37
Can you say more about this? nt Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #38
In general, I've been thinking a lot about Calvinism this morning. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #39
Several thoughts. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #40
So bottom line, there is some power that God does not have. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #54
No, if I said that I didn't mean to. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #56
All powerful. All the power. For God. None for us. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #57
God is all powerful. We are not. But we do have power. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #58
When you say "all powerful" Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #59
I agree, we need to operationalize the term. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #60
I mean it in this discussion in an existential sense. Htom Sirveaux Nov 2017 #61
You are correct in that I believe that God is all powerful but does not exercise his potential Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #62
Htom, I think there is a scenario that fits your view. One that makes sense to me. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #69
To elaborate further and to borrow from guilaumeb. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #49
Perhaps the Creator, for whatever purpose having created, guillaumeb Nov 2017 #42
Yes I think this is true to some extent. But a bit more.... Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #44
As do all people who believe in such entities. MineralMan Nov 2017 #20
It is the standard all powerful abrahamic god. Voltaire2 Nov 2017 #36
Recommended for the very interesting dialogue that has occured thus far. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #43
God promised me a nice big piece of cake if I wrote good things about Him. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #46
My feeling is that all aspects of tribalism are necessary to survival. guillaumeb Nov 2017 #47
Humans hard wired for religion for survival purposes. Does this connect to free will then? Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #48
What would "total free will" encompass? guillaumeb Nov 2017 #50
I would agree "total" free will does not exist. Irish_Dem Nov 2017 #51
I recommed reading or... Snackshack Nov 2017 #52
What about Acts of God? MarvinGardens Nov 2017 #63
Or as I call them, Things That Happen. Iggo Nov 2017 #64
All the modern descriptions also describe nogod existing Lordquinton Nov 2017 #66
"If God knows which decision I will make before I exist ..." Jim__ Nov 2017 #67
There is no 'free will'... If you believe in an all-powerful God, there is only'allowed will'. keithbvadu2 Nov 2017 #70
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Let's talk about free wil...»Reply #0