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Garrett78

(10,721 posts)
24. It's not the individual; it's the system.
Tue May 31, 2016, 08:49 PM
May 2016

The US is so individualistic and oriented toward the Cult of Personality that it's easy to overestimate the power and influence of individual actors, while underestimating systemic forces. Obama was against gay marriage (publicly at any rate) until a mass movement allowed him to vocalize a more humane position.

This being a 2-person race and Sanders able to capitalize on anti-establishment sentiment, he's done remarkably well. But he, too, is a cog in a wheel and is far from having a record on foreign policy that supports the notion that he's the candidate of peace. Consider the following:

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/bernie-sanders-troubling-history-supporting-us-military-violence-abroad

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/04/27/kill-a27.html

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/

Bringing about broad systemic change requires organization/mass movements, and I think local politics is where it all begins. I can hold my nose and vote for a presidential candidate without it compromising my values and without it meaning I'm investing a great deal of energy in national politics. I'm much more invested in local organizations.

There seem to be 3 realistic outcomes this November. Clinton winning by a wide margin (in both the popular vote and the electoral college vote), Clinton winning by a slim margin and Trump winning. You can contribute to any one of those scenarios simply by voting--it doesn't require an investment of time and energy. Which of those scenarios is most likely to help lay the groundwork for progressive reform? A strong rejection of Trump, a weak rejection of Trump or a Trump victory?

I'll close by linking to 2 writings by Julio Huato that were kind of game-changing for me:

http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2011/2011-June/007032.html

http://www.swans.com/library/art11/jhuato01.html

I get that there's a valid leftist critique of the Democratic Party (and its various representatives). I get that there's a valid critique of the US political system as a whole. What I have a problem with (pertaining to Democratic Underground, particularly GDP) is the denial of reality/fantastical thinking, promotion of grand conspiracies (the denial, if you will, of Occam's Razor) and all of the straw man arguments put forth day after day. Since GDP is dominated by Sanders supporters, the vast majority of that stuff comes from Sanders supporters. All of which hurts the cause, so to speak.

Just some food for thought (from someone who isn't a big fan of either Clinton or Sanders, a reader of Howard Zinn and Robert Jensen, etc.).

Every Democrat worthy of the name Tal Vez May 2016 #1
Why, thank you Arbiter of knowing what is in a persons mind and thier motives. Sky Masterson May 2016 #2
Are you Bernie or Bust? YouDig May 2016 #3
I live in Kansas Sky Masterson May 2016 #6
OK, in that case, Bust away. Still being part of the BOB "movement" encourages YouDig May 2016 #7
That is the thing. Sky Masterson May 2016 #11
Gore-Kerry-Obama-Clinton...all basically the same policy-wise. Garrett78 May 2016 #12
Yeah, that's the thing, right? Obama and Clinton on policy are almost the same. YouDig May 2016 #17
I do appreciate your snark free civilized question Sky Masterson May 2016 #18
It's not the individual; it's the system. Garrett78 May 2016 #24
Who assumes Bernie supporters are Democrats, diehard or not? I don't. YouDig May 2016 #13
But you need others to Win. Sky Masterson May 2016 #21
I suspect that at least some of the BoBers are Democrats and voted for Obama. Garrett78 May 2016 #22
I'm not sure your vote doesn't matter. Garrett78 May 2016 #9
It will matter only as a message. Sky Masterson May 2016 #14
I agree, but please note there's waaaaaaaay to much logic in the OP, throw some unicorns and pixie uponit7771 May 2016 #4
Yes, but I never see #BernieorBust people claim their only goal is to stop Trump though. One Black Sheep May 2016 #5
But they use the "we need to beat Trump" argument to try and convince people YouDig May 2016 #8
The OP makes a good point. Garrett78 May 2016 #10
I will only vote for an ethical candidate. Call that whatever you would like. Live and Learn May 2016 #15
What do you base that on? Garrett78 May 2016 #19
My world expertise. nt Live and Learn May 2016 #20
LOL, K & R BootinUp May 2016 #16
Well said. barrow-wight May 2016 #23
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