Is it possible to exist outside ideology?

[ZombieHorde]

17. I agree human behavior relates to objects,

but human behavior is not an object, and objects are not human behavior. For example, if I draw a picture, the picture relies upon drawing, but the picture is not drawing. Drawing and picture have a relationship, but they are different.

An idea of an external object cannot exist without that object existing as well.

I'm not sure what you mean here. What is the significance of this statement?

And we were never discussing meanings.

All of my posts to you in this thread have been about meaning. In post 7, I asked you about the meaning of ideology. In post 9 I discussed what the words "state" and "churches" mean to me. In post 11 I discussed the meaning of "strictly imaginary," and expanded on my meanings for "state," etc. And obviously I brought up meaning in my last post to you mentioned we weren't talking about meaning.

The Nazi governments that killed the Jews was materially real. The American government that wiped out Indian nations was materially real.

No. People killing people is materially real, the labels are imaginary. If the labels are not imaginary, or more than imaginary, then how should we detect them? How do we use science to prove a label, such as Nazi government or American goverment, is objectively present? If we know they are real then we should know ways to detect them.

The material means they used were horribly real.

I agree that the means were real.

What I object to are the objective existence of certain labels, such as "Germany." I also object to the objective existence of legal and moral authority. How do we detect legal authority?