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In reply to the discussion: Ukraine's former President &Prime Minister to formalize and strengthen alliance with Neo-Nazi groups [View all]The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)48. For The Record, 'reorg' On 'Vineyard of the Saker'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025491094#post97
"You feel comfortable making such a claim
based on nothing else than these two quotes?
I think what he may be going on about in your first quote is the "singularity" claim, when he says "the only case of mass murder in history which always has to be attached to a number of victims". He obviously doesn't deny the mass murder.
As to the exact numbers, there seems to be some disagreement even among serious researchers, since estimates are involved:
Early calculations range from about 4.2 to 4.5 million in The Final Solution (1953) by Gerald Reitlinger (arguing against higher Russian estimates), and 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust estimate 5.595.86 million. A study led by Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin suggests 5.296.2 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880
Holocaust deniers don't say the exact number of victims may be disputable or not be important, they say the Holocaust didn't happen and claim that a comparatively much smaller number of camp inmates, one million or so, may have died of typhus or other diseases. That's very different from what this "Saker blogger" says in your quote.
The second quote is taken out of context. He is distancing himself from Nazi troll posts, and the part you quoted is the introduction, where he acknowledges some of the typical Neonazi claims (the Jewish boycott of German goods, I suppose) only to demolish their relevance in the following paragraphs, which you chose not to quote.
That he loathes religious fundamentalists (I think he mentions elsewhere his similar hatred for Wahhabism) and political ideologies based on religion and/or race is an attitude that he shares with a lot of people. Perhaps you believe they are all anti-Semites, but I would take exception to that. Personally, I don't "loathe" religious people, as long as they leave me alone I don't care. But if somebody does, I don't "loathe" them either, as long there is room for rational discussion and they don't proselytize to join their club."
This is a full-throated defense, and a knowing one.
The most humorous element of it is that he actually seems to think this amounts to distancing oneself from Nazi trolls:
"I am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).
I will go as far as saying that Rabbinical Judaism is, in my sincerely held conclusion, Satanic at its core and at least as evil as Wahabi Islam."
A fair summary would be, then, something like this: 'Hey, don't mix me up with those Nazi whackos; I'm just a salt-of-the-earth, feet on the ground kind of guy who knows perfectly well all the evil Jews get up to in this world.'
( edited to add the 'first quote' referred to in the above defense of blatant Anti-Semitic commentary )
"I am disgusted by the modern media in which no criticisms of Jews is possible or, not without at least 3 paragraphs of disclaimers. I hate the modern "Holocaust Industry" ( As Norman Finkelstein called it) for constantly rubbing it in over and over and over and over again with the "Holocaust" and its absolutely mandatory figure of "6 millions" (the only case of mass murder in history which always has to be attached to a number of victims, the only one. Ever wondered why? )."
"You feel comfortable making such a claim
based on nothing else than these two quotes?
I think what he may be going on about in your first quote is the "singularity" claim, when he says "the only case of mass murder in history which always has to be attached to a number of victims". He obviously doesn't deny the mass murder.
As to the exact numbers, there seems to be some disagreement even among serious researchers, since estimates are involved:
Early calculations range from about 4.2 to 4.5 million in The Final Solution (1953) by Gerald Reitlinger (arguing against higher Russian estimates), and 5.1 million from Raul Hilberg, to 5.95 million from Jacob Lestschinsky. Yisrael Gutman and Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust estimate 5.595.86 million. A study led by Wolfgang Benz of the Technical University of Berlin suggests 5.296.2 million.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Victims_and_death_toll
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-features/.premium-1.540880
Holocaust deniers don't say the exact number of victims may be disputable or not be important, they say the Holocaust didn't happen and claim that a comparatively much smaller number of camp inmates, one million or so, may have died of typhus or other diseases. That's very different from what this "Saker blogger" says in your quote.
The second quote is taken out of context. He is distancing himself from Nazi troll posts, and the part you quoted is the introduction, where he acknowledges some of the typical Neonazi claims (the Jewish boycott of German goods, I suppose) only to demolish their relevance in the following paragraphs, which you chose not to quote.
That he loathes religious fundamentalists (I think he mentions elsewhere his similar hatred for Wahhabism) and political ideologies based on religion and/or race is an attitude that he shares with a lot of people. Perhaps you believe they are all anti-Semites, but I would take exception to that. Personally, I don't "loathe" religious people, as long as they leave me alone I don't care. But if somebody does, I don't "loathe" them either, as long there is room for rational discussion and they don't proselytize to join their club."
This is a full-throated defense, and a knowing one.
The most humorous element of it is that he actually seems to think this amounts to distancing oneself from Nazi trolls:
"I am fully aware of the role which Jews played in the horrors of the 20th century, I am aware that they declared war on Russia first, and on Germany after that (both times the order came from organized American Jewry and Jewish banks), I loathe both Rabbinical Judaism and Zionism because both are based on self-worship and racism. I don't need lectures on all the bad things Jews have done or are still doing. Believe me, I have read more anti-Jewish books than most people here (if only because I read them all not only English, but also in Russian which has at least 10 times as many anti-Jewish books as there are in English).
I will go as far as saying that Rabbinical Judaism is, in my sincerely held conclusion, Satanic at its core and at least as evil as Wahabi Islam."
A fair summary would be, then, something like this: 'Hey, don't mix me up with those Nazi whackos; I'm just a salt-of-the-earth, feet on the ground kind of guy who knows perfectly well all the evil Jews get up to in this world.'
( edited to add the 'first quote' referred to in the above defense of blatant Anti-Semitic commentary )
"I am disgusted by the modern media in which no criticisms of Jews is possible or, not without at least 3 paragraphs of disclaimers. I hate the modern "Holocaust Industry" ( As Norman Finkelstein called it) for constantly rubbing it in over and over and over and over again with the "Holocaust" and its absolutely mandatory figure of "6 millions" (the only case of mass murder in history which always has to be attached to a number of victims, the only one. Ever wondered why? )."
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Ukraine's former President &Prime Minister to formalize and strengthen alliance with Neo-Nazi groups [View all]
newthinking
Sep 2014
OP
I am not sure what kind of question it is. There is some sarcasm in it but I really wanted to know
jwirr
Sep 2014
#5
I believe they are part of the Kiev Coup Government. The Neo Nazi party has been part of that
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#22
Nope, that was just the polling for one group and when the various groups were more disparate.
newthinking
Sep 2014
#4
True, Sir: Until You Can Demonstrate Grasp Of Facts And Logic, And Mature Understanding...
The Magistrate
Sep 2014
#11
If you are that knowledgeable, why the rambling OP that does not prove its subject heading
karynnj
Sep 2014
#61
The neo nazis won 10% of the vote in Ukraine giving them a place in the Parliament. THAT
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#32
All that would be fine, if it was accurate. When people choose to take control of their own
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#69
If we had a parliamentary system in the US, white supremacists would poll higher than 7%
MohRokTah
Sep 2014
#9
It would be more like if the Republicans openly supported KKK leaders and gave some of them
newthinking
Sep 2014
#20
you keep making that unsupported claim. Your premises appear to be little more than irrational guess
LanternWaste
Sep 2014
#37
If By 'Apologizing For', Sir, You Intend The Classic Definition Of 'Explaining'
The Magistrate
Sep 2014
#18
The former PM and President would not be forming this alliance if they thought
newthinking
Sep 2014
#13
'Our guy Yatz'! Hard to admit when you are wrong, I suppose. I would rather have
sabrina 1
Sep 2014
#33
I am curious why nobody has mentioned the "Iron Cross" that the former President and PM have on
newthinking
Sep 2014
#23
Once again, we Jews are touched by this sudden concern about antisemitism in eastern europe.
stevenleser
Sep 2014
#24
Respect for the truth please. Antisemitism is lower in Russia than Ukraine and much of Eastern Europ
newthinking
Sep 2014
#29
As I said, we are touched by your sudden concern. I have other sources that show Russia is worst
stevenleser
Sep 2014
#30
I see you have learned to spin well. Not interested in dishonest discussion. Clearly
newthinking
Sep 2014
#31
Yes, multiple links with proof shows "I'm not debating honestly". Nice try, not
stevenleser
Sep 2014
#34
You struggle because you are trying to adjust facts to fit your theories instead of vice versa
stevenleser
Sep 2014
#39
You yourself admitted you are struggling. As a result, your question doesnt make sense. nt
stevenleser
Sep 2014
#52
Probably because I am neither an antisemite nor a Russian apologist like your other sources
stevenleser
Sep 2014
#64
Given Your Defense Of 'Vineyard of the Saker', Sir, As A Legitimate Source Of Fact And Commentary
The Magistrate
Sep 2014
#40
Put Bluntly, Sir, I Know You Have Defended That Blog As A Legitimate Source
The Magistrate
Sep 2014
#45
And You Repeat Your Defense Here, Sir, Even As You Say You Do Not Defend Him
The Magistrate
Sep 2014
#63
To Call The Kiev Government A Nazi Government, Sir, Remains False To Fact
The Magistrate
Sep 2014
#66