There is a strange "talking past" each other going on here. I am being told that I am saying things that I simply have not said.

It is a given that were many, many, many "environmental" forces at work -- FOX, Rise of RW radio... could go on and one. And regarding the election itself, it is a given that voter suppression helped tip the balance. And Sure, if every Stein voter had voted for Clinton the balance would have tipped the other way.

The thing is, in my view, all that is essentially irrelevant. The question we MUST be asking ourselves is "How did we get to this moment in our history? A moment in the the number of people openly supporting Authoritarian/Reactionary/Racist/UnAmerican political ideology is almost equal to the number openly supporting Democratic/Progressive/American/Multicultural political ideology."

If Clinton had won, I would NOT have heaved some sigh of relief. Answering the question, "How did we get to this moment?..." would still have been critical. A nation that calls itself a constitutional democracy is in serious trouble when forces antithetical to core principles rise to the level we are seeing.

I took a shot at re-framing things (Link below). Don't know if it will help anyone get a better handle on what I'm saying. If you have any suggestions on how to "get through" I'd welcome them. if Democrats are not more open to taking a HARD look at their own role in how we got here, I do not see how we can turn the tide. I have no interest in just "butting heads." I want to find ways to get past the knee jerk "You hate Democrats. STFU" response.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=8775743