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JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
55. You have already passed judgement.
Tue Oct 13, 2015, 06:06 PM
Oct 2015

First of all, your argument that the day was important is a red herring. We all agree it was very important. It should be taught, studied and commemorated. Some of us think it should not be commemorated in the name of the failed conquistador Colon, however.

Merely in the fact that you primarily wish to identify the would-be conquistador as a mariner means you have already delivered a judgment, one in his favor. I suppose we can also call Alexander and Genghis horsemen. You seem to be attached, not to a credible history, but to the modern-day, nationalist narrative (of Spain and a number of N. and S. American countries) that exonerates a mass murderer.

It is certain that people of his time did condemn him - the only problem is you're not willing to hear their voices, since they are the ones who didn't matter to him, the indigenous peoples he "discovered." He understood what he was doing at the time very bloody well, demanding that his missions deliver more forced labor, slaves, and gold. It was the moral standard of the Spanish empire to which this Italian voluntarily chose to attach himself. Not everyone at the time would have acted as he did. (It's interesting seeing on behalf of which arguments people choose to invoke the objection of anachronism.)

It was Eratosthenes, a mathematician in Ptolemaic Egypt, who first estimated the earth's circumference. No one is judging Colon by the standards of today to point out that more than 1600 years later, he was wrong about the circumference. This is why people at the time thought he was crazy, because he was trying to sell the Spanish crown on the idea that the earth was much smaller than thought by the consensus of those who had an opinion. Quite possibly because he was a con man, since the crown would not have spent on the mission if he had not persuaded them of his smaller earth theory. He got lucky.

So yes, commemorate. October 12 should be an Indigenous Peoples Day, and for their part I can only wish Italian-Americans would choose to celebrate a holiday commemorating Galileo - someone who was far more important in constituting the modern-day civilization than Colon. Someone furthermore who displayed moral courage, not just a desire to make himself famous, rich and powerful.

So are they gonna rename Columbus, Ohio, too? tclambert Oct 2015 #1
How about the District Of Columbia? NonMetro Oct 2015 #7
District of Columbia is cool. tclambert Oct 2015 #15
What is interesting is that the city surrounding the cesspool of shite is very liberal. YOHABLO Oct 2015 #17
And what if they did? JackRiddler Oct 2015 #25
I vote for Columbo Day. Binkie The Clown Oct 2015 #2
That's my man. 840high Oct 2015 #5
His tactics - edgineered Oct 2015 #13
I have just one question about that . . . tclambert Oct 2015 #14
It was meant as a day to honor Italian-Americans oberliner Oct 2015 #3
Then call it Italian-American Day. St. Patrick was a sainted priest. YOHABLO Oct 2015 #18
do you think America has too many holidays? CreekDog Oct 2015 #44
I nominate Galileo. JackRiddler Oct 2015 #23
Alaska and Anchorage have declared today Indigenous People's Day. Blue_In_AK Oct 2015 #4
I like that. mpcamb Oct 2015 #9
my idea, too ---I would call it Native American Day wordpix Oct 2015 #52
+1 harun Oct 2015 #61
Who Was Here First Is Not The Point. NonMetro Oct 2015 #6
Amen. Leave it alone. mpcamb Oct 2015 #8
Well, If We Want To Condemn Everyone Who Ever Owned Slaves, NonMetro Oct 2015 #10
I'm not sure either of you are aware... Old Crow Oct 2015 #12
they most certainly are not Skittles Oct 2015 #20
If what you say is true, I couldn't agree more passiveporcupine Oct 2015 #21
I've been reading up on Columbus over the past few years. Old Crow Oct 2015 #27
Ward Churchill???? Psephos Oct 2015 #29
Point taken. Old Crow Oct 2015 #33
I will look for the Patrick Sale book. Thank you for the suggestion. n/t Psephos Oct 2015 #34
My pleasure. (N/T) Old Crow Oct 2015 #35
thanks, I'll check out your links when I can keep my eyes open passiveporcupine Oct 2015 #31
The point stands: all the founding fathers are evil by any reasonable standard frizzled Oct 2015 #37
Can't agree with you. Old Crow Oct 2015 #38
They don't all need to be equally evil to be all evil. frizzled Oct 2015 #39
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Old Crow Oct 2015 #40
Sure. But what pressures was Columbus under? NonMetro Oct 2015 #43
I can't agree with anything in your post. Old Crow Oct 2015 #53
Instead of starting out by accusing me of making excuses, why not just NonMetro Oct 2015 #54
Well, thanks. Old Crow Oct 2015 #59
I wonder what judgement the people he killed would pass on him? JackRiddler Oct 2015 #58
As I have noted in other threads Drahthaardogs Oct 2015 #60
Screw the "founders," but don't defame them. JackRiddler Oct 2015 #24
Wait a minute? You're saying it's okay for the Founders to have owned slaves? CreekDog Oct 2015 #45
Screw that. It's more fun to be self-righteous with the benefit of 500 years of hindsight. Throd Oct 2015 #11
you're saying it's self righteous to advocate to change the name of a holiday? CreekDog Oct 2015 #46
Though much more fun to act with an intractable dogma LanternWaste Oct 2015 #47
And like everyone on here, you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how ignorant. YOHABLO Oct 2015 #19
Why put the phrase "no matter how ignorant" in your reply? Psephos Oct 2015 #30
OP is extremely ignorant of the facts, that's why. harun Oct 2015 #62
That's an argument for "Encounter Day" JackRiddler Oct 2015 #26
Columbus knew the world was round, too, and so did those who sailed with him NonMetro Oct 2015 #42
You have already passed judgement. JackRiddler Oct 2015 #55
Columbus and his men were murdering sadist. Change the name to Howard Zinn day > YOHABLO Oct 2015 #16
Change the name but don't take away the damn holiday. nt valerief Oct 2015 #22
In South Dakota, this day became Native American Day... prairierose Oct 2015 #28
I always thought that "Discovery Day" would be a good one world wide wally Oct 2015 #32
I'm getting tired of this nonsense clamshells Oct 2015 #36
"you'd need several dozen of them to add up to Jefferson's abilities" BumRushDaShow Oct 2015 #41
It should be renamed "Colonial Genocide Day." mhatrw Oct 2015 #48
Say Whatever You Want itcfish Oct 2015 #49
What country are "we"? JackRiddler Oct 2015 #56
Beats having to deal with real world issues. n/t Comrade Grumpy Oct 2015 #50
I would say "gaining momentum" is a stretch... brooklynite Oct 2015 #51
Several cities have already declared it. JackRiddler Oct 2015 #57
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