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Redleg

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112. This is possible but subverts the military

Reply to Beastly Boy (Reply #111)

Wed Sep 15, 2021, 01:56 PM

Sep 2021

And the subordinates have the right to refuse to follow an unlawful order, even if it's from the president.

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Vindman calls for Milley's resignation: 'He usurped civilian authority' [View all] Calista241 Sep 2021 OP

I totally disagree with Vindman. This is not the time for Scrivener7 Sep 2021 #1

Exactly..where might we be had he not stepped in??!! PortTack Sep 2021 #3

Vindman is correct, Milley did a good thing in a bad precedent. Milley needs to resign. marble falls Sep 2021 #4

No, Milley should be given a medal, he not only saved the country but the World. Escurumbele Sep 2021 #11

+1 n/t area51 Sep 2021 #18

He circumvented law. I'm glad he did it. But I do not want military leader circumventing ... marble falls Sep 2021 #21

"I'd like to hear how he justified what he did."...He needed to save the country and the World? Escurumbele Sep 2021 #25

I AGREE WITH YOU. Trump THE ANTI CHRIST. You get rid of evil at ANY opportunity Trueblue1968 Sep 2021 #182

No, Milley should resign, and then be given a medal of honor. Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #52

The oath -- which I have taken, since I am a former army officer Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2021 #83

Agreed Redleg Sep 2021 #97

I stand corrected. Just found a reply on DU that disqualifies my argument Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #100

Milley is in the chain of command Redleg Sep 2021 #102

He has the commander in chief above him. Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #108

The president doesn't issue orders directly to subordinate commanders Redleg Sep 2021 #110

Ordinarily that is the case. Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #111

This is possible but subverts the military Redleg Sep 2021 #112

Subordinates have the right to refuse an illegal order, but Milley has no right to stop them Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #115

Subordinates have not just the right to disobey illegal orders Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2021 #143

Right or duty, Milley has no right to demand circumvention of chain of command Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #158

HE WANTED TO AVOID A POSSIBLE NUCLEAR WAR Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2021 #163

He did. And he succeeded. Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #164

Did you ever hear about the Battle of Copenhagen during the Napoleonic Wars? Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2021 #173

It was the right thing to do in Milley's case too. Beastly Boy Sep 2021 #178

General Milley is not in the chain of command. LudwigPastorius Sep 2021 #120

That's the oath for enlisted personnel. Officers take a different oath. mahatmakanejeeves Sep 2021 #138

Oh please. former9thward Sep 2021 #67

But Milley feared that Trump might start a war. Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2021 #87

That leads to anyone in the military going around the CIC. former9thward Sep 2021 #90

+1 DashOneBravo Sep 2021 #128

And there's precedent from the same fears when Nixon was president. Lonestarblue Sep 2021 #89

X 1000 2Gingersnaps Sep 2021 #118

Milley's oath was sworn to protect the US, not the military chain of command. mpcamb Sep 2021 #165

This message was self-deleted by its author mpcamb Sep 2021 #166

The precedent was set BidenRocks Sep 2021 #14

+ agree. iluvtennis Sep 2021 #62

why wouldnt this fall under- refusing an illegal order? mopinko Sep 2021 #41

What illegal order? former9thward Sep 2021 #63

should 1 be issued. mopinko Sep 2021 #93

No, Vindman gets a medal. Jon King Sep 2021 #59

Miley quite possibly circumvented an unlawful POTUS order from being carried out. hadEnuf Sep 2021 #75

So the same for Major General Smedley Butler? LiberalLovinLug Sep 2021 #85

No, that would set a bad precedent. Miley did the right thing...Trump should have been out Demsrule86 Sep 2021 #107

I agree. But all of this needs to be investigated, documented and safe guards put into place. Missn-Hitch Sep 2021 #113

What Milley did was a "soft" military coup, and cannot go unchallenged Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #8

Then there will be other military officials like Milley to stop them. Escurumbele Sep 2021 #16

Under normal circumstances Vindman's criticism may be legitimate. notinkansas Sep 2021 #55

In my most humble opinion Milley should explain himself to the Armed Services Committee groundloop Sep 2021 #31

I think that calling it a "soft coup" is stretching it quite a bit Redleg Sep 2021 #98

This message was self-deleted by its author Redleg Sep 2021 #99

Milley improperly inserted himself in the chain of command between prez and generals Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #121

Trump exceeded his authority and responsibility to the Constitution. NCjack Sep 2021 #103

Well okay. I certainly respect his opinion. underpants Sep 2021 #2

Defend and uphold the constitution against all enemies: especially Trump. Tetrachloride Sep 2021 #5

Yeah, there is that. Here's the oath all military officers take and that Milley took when he was KPN Sep 2021 #43

That is why you are a Lt Col. pwb Sep 2021 #6

Well put, thank you. Yes, Vindman, just be quiet, appreciate what was done. Escurumbele Sep 2021 #17

But we want our military to think as Vindman does. Scrivener7 Sep 2021 #95

If rank equaled "right"... you would still lose that argument FBaggins Sep 2021 #27

But he was also obviously unhinged. Scrivener7 Sep 2021 #96

Unfortunately, "obviously unhinged" isn't an authority that he is delegated FBaggins Sep 2021 #104

Trump was the civilian authority behind the insurrection. Which part of that doesn't Vindman JohnSJ Sep 2021 #71

THIS orangecrush Sep 2021 #172

Oh please...if Milley prevented a nuclear war, then he is a hero...this is out of line by Vindman Escurumbele Sep 2021 #7

Vindman blew the whistle and PUBLICLY testified- he did not use his authority to circumvent Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #12

Vindman did not have the authority to do anything besides what he did. Escurumbele Sep 2021 #20

There was no order to destroy the world by TFG, only the potential Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #26

Vindman atreides1 Sep 2021 #22

Vindman did "also breach his chain of command" FBaggins Sep 2021 #29

Vindman was supposed to be on that call, he wasn't eavesdropping Fiendish Thingy Sep 2021 #30

I like it! That would really screw with TFG's head in a serious way to boot! KPN Sep 2021 #44

Milley should resign as soon as Trump is indicted for crimes. FalloutShelter Sep 2021 #9

If Dump was going to start a nuclear war, I would have been ok with a military coup to stop it. roamer65 Sep 2021 #10

Sorry, Col. Vindman, but I strenuously disagree this time.... Hekate Sep 2021 #13

IF it happened as stated sarisataka Sep 2021 #15

Milley showed courage. He knew he would be asked to resign for breaking the rules. Irish_Dem Sep 2021 #19

I think Milley would be shocked and even disappointed if there weren't consequences cadoman Sep 2021 #175

I agree with your points. Irish_Dem Sep 2021 #176

Milley stepped in because the republican Senate failed. Turbineguy Sep 2021 #23

Everytime I hear twice impeached, OneCrazyDiamond Sep 2021 #34

Exactly -- failed their pledge to uphold the Constitution. Milley did exactly that. KPN Sep 2021 #49

Bingo!! onetexan Sep 2021 #72

I Am Reminded Of This Quote smb Sep 2021 #24

I remember that episode LetMyPeopleVote Sep 2021 #35

If the book is true, this would bad: OneCrazyDiamond Sep 2021 #28

Yeah giving the Chinese a chance to nuke us 1st seems like a bad idea. nt EX500rider Sep 2021 #167

Imagine being a grunt on that first wave. OneCrazyDiamond Sep 2021 #168

Well, his 15 minutes of fame are over. Bye. n/t Peregrine Took Sep 2021 #32

MSNBC's Morning Joe absolutely shreds GOP outrage over Milley: 'Are you stupid?' LetMyPeopleVote Sep 2021 #33

Vindman on Fox news awesomerwb1 Sep 2021 #36

I for one shall wait for much more information than an excerpt from a book. chowder66 Sep 2021 #37

Thank you chia Sep 2021 #130

: ) chowder66 Sep 2021 #131

I can understand his point here! (depends on the WHOLESTORY) i guess. bluestarone Sep 2021 #38

The "civilian authority" that should have removed Trump had abdicated responsibility out of fear. highplainsdem Sep 2021 #39

Was there an actual order by Trump that Milley refused to obey? joetheman Sep 2021 #40

I'm afraid that you have it backwards FBaggins Sep 2021 #58

I don't disagree with you but I am asking about the legalities and if Millely is truly joetheman Sep 2021 #94

I think it depends on how accurate the book is. FBaggins Sep 2021 #114

It's NOT Treason ProfessorGAC Sep 2021 #177

Think of all the backchannel conversations by the GOP military and civilian against President Obama. joetheman Sep 2021 #42

ftr, my nephew mopinko Sep 2021 #45

Sounds to me that as head of JCOS he was doing his job as ordered. KS Toronado Sep 2021 #46

Chain of Command toasty Sep 2021 #47

I disagree with the attacks on Gen. Milley but TomSlick Sep 2021 #134

Well then... toasty Sep 2021 #141

I don't see the answer to my question. TomSlick Sep 2021 #150

No toasty Sep 2021 #160

If it's there, I can't find it. TomSlick Sep 2021 #161

To put Gen. Milley's actions in perspective one Enoki33 Sep 2021 #48

OK, just as soon as General Milley receives a Congressional Medal of Honor. (nt) Paladin Sep 2021 #50

Many on the left. . . NQAS Sep 2021 #51

President Biden likely knew a lot, especially after Jan 1. Tetrachloride Sep 2021 #53

I"m sorry but as a retired naval officer, I say Vindman is wrong Farmer-Rick Sep 2021 #54

How often have we heard "The Constitution is not a suicide pact"? Qutzupalotl Sep 2021 #56

Vindman is totally wrong, there was no 'precedent' so Milley had to plan. Jon King Sep 2021 #57

Tell Vindman to piss up a rope. Firestorm49 Sep 2021 #60

Miley's oath was to protect our Constitution UpInArms Sep 2021 #61

What if the next Repub President puts in a die hard Repub 4 star general as Chairman. Calista241 Sep 2021 #69

I did not say that Milley should not face consequences UpInArms Sep 2021 #78

"Miley's oath was to protect our Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic" You nailed it! mpcamb Sep 2021 #84

I think this situation falls under the heading of Mr. Evil Sep 2021 #64

I disagree 100% AverageOldGuy Sep 2021 #65

Thank you for the information! 2Gingersnaps Sep 2021 #127

It is trumpty dumpty who would have tried to circumvent the chain of command for nuclear strike. iluvtennis Sep 2021 #66

Gen. Mark Milley is an American hero LetMyPeopleVote Sep 2021 #68

+++ JohnSJ Sep 2021 #73

Not in this case Vindman. The civilian authority you speak of was behind the insurrection JohnSJ Sep 2021 #70

Where's the confirmation that the book is right? Postal Grunt Sep 2021 #74

Gen Milley first made sure established proceedures would be followed and mackdaddy Sep 2021 #80

"Milley WAS the chain of command for military orders..." LudwigPastorius Sep 2021 #86

TFG Is Insane And The Cabinet Was Too Scared To Remove Him DanieRains Sep 2021 #76

Chain of command? Etherealoc1 Sep 2021 #77

I agree that Milley may have been attempting to insert himself into the chain of command, but... LudwigPastorius Sep 2021 #79

I would rather that the general do something dubious Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2021 #81

If anyone should resign it's most of the Repugs in the Senate SouthernDem4ever Sep 2021 #82

Jen Psaki discussed it briefly, in press conference: elleng Sep 2021 #88

"I have great confidence in Gen Milley" BigmanPigman Sep 2021 #124

Thanks; glad you caught it. elleng Sep 2021 #125

Gen Milley is smart SayItLoud Sep 2021 #91

Years of military activity after 9/11 have their effects Raven123 Sep 2021 #92

The president does not have the authority to de facto declare war by launching a first strike Redleg Sep 2021 #101

That's not true. The President CAN issue a first strike order Calista241 Sep 2021 #105

That is a policy review Redleg Sep 2021 #109

He would never have to declare war. Calista241 Sep 2021 #116

It's not about the president's authority- it's about the lawfulness of launching unprovoked attack Redleg Sep 2021 #148

That's incorrect - but also irrelevant to the current topic FBaggins Sep 2021 #136

Neither incorrect or irrelevant Redleg Sep 2021 #149

Nope FBaggins Sep 2021 #153

I think you need to sit this one out, Lt. Col. Cozmo Sep 2021 #106

If instead of talking to Dan Quayle to find a Constitutional path to overthrowing an election. 2Gingersnaps Sep 2021 #117

President Biden will decide. Crataegus Sep 2021 #119

Milly did the right thing. beemerphill Sep 2021 #122

Milley served his country well. JohnnyRingo Sep 2021 #123

Very sorry to see this, from Retired Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman. elleng Sep 2021 #126

So what's the problem? Mz Pip Sep 2021 #129

Lt. Col. Vindman makes a valid point. Milley had the right instincts, but he should have Martin68 Sep 2021 #132

No, there is nothing Miley did wrong. We almost lost our government because the "civillian JohnSJ Sep 2021 #133

This message was self-deleted by its author ExTex Sep 2021 #135

Yeah, but where would we be if he hadn't done what he did? Joinfortmill Sep 2021 #137

Milley did not usurp power Deminpenn Sep 2021 #139

How can people write that General Miley did the right thing or the wrong thing marie999 Sep 2021 #140

Nazis: "We were just following the law." Tiger8 Sep 2021 #142

When Vindman made that statement, he didn't know Milley HAD followed procedures. Kid Berwyn Sep 2021 #144

Really? Interesting. LymphocyteLover Sep 2021 #152

Milley informed Esper, per standing policy. Kid Berwyn Sep 2021 #169

I didn't think the China calls were the problem as much as interfering in the normal command LymphocyteLover Sep 2021 #179

Yeah. That has not been de-classified or leaked. Kid Berwyn Sep 2021 #181

Yes, I'm not sure the real chain of commands for nukes is public LymphocyteLover Sep 2021 #183

I didn't know that sakabatou Sep 2021 #156

Vindman must not have known Esper was informed, per policy. Kid Berwyn Sep 2021 #170

That's actually what pardons were made for. malthaussen Sep 2021 #145

I'm with you on that MissMillie Sep 2021 #146

IMHO, Gen. Milley acted within the bounds of the PRP program as ordered by the D.O.D. radicalleft Sep 2021 #147

Disagree with Vindman here. Happy Hoosier Sep 2021 #151

Much still to know, but we know Milley would have done it with full awareness Hortensis Sep 2021 #154

Vindman is wrong Lithos Sep 2021 #155

Milley did good! BlueWavePsych Sep 2021 #157

Extreme Threats call for Extreme Measures tonekat Sep 2021 #159

I'm sure Milley didn't take this step lightly. AngryOldDem Sep 2021 #162

Milley did the right thing orangecrush Sep 2021 #171

I have to agree with Vindman Steelrolled Sep 2021 #174

I think we learned from the concentration camps what happens tavernier Sep 2021 #180

Revisiting this two weeks later and after the Generals' testimony before both House and Senate.... George II Sep 2021 #184