Trump attorneys haven't found classified document former president referred to on tape

[BumRushDaShow]

58. And to reply

What you're essentially saying is that ...

... there is no uniform federal chain of custody procedure. I should think there would be, based on the numerous procedures for levels of classification, and especially materials that are to never leave a SCIF.

For certain types of documents, there most likely IS something in statute that is "uniform" for those who maintain that type of info (mostly military and intelligence agencies under DHS, but also obviously including the CIA which is independent). My agency, like the vast majority of agencies, didn't deal with "classified" info, just various degrees of "sensitive" (Public Trust, etc) info.

The thing about our system of government is that it really is "honor system-based". Meaning employees are sworn to uphold the laws and procedures, knowing if they don't, they COULD BE punished (fined and/or jailed). The operative word being "could". It's a matter of whether the allegations of not following proper procedures are pursued and punishment for the breach are followed through.

In the case in the other thread you replied to regarding Teixeira, from what I recall in the media, some heads were rolled among some of the leadership in that unit -

Air Force suspends 2 commanders from unit where Pentagon leak suspect worked

April 26, 2023, 10:05 PM EDT
By Mosheh Gains and Phil Helsel

Two commanders in the military unit in which leak suspect Jack Teixeira worked have been suspended, the Air Force said Wednesday.

The commander of the 102nd Intelligence Support Squadron and a detachment commander were suspended, Air Force spokesperson Ann Stefanek said.

They were suspended “pending further investigation into the unauthorized disclosure of classified information,” the Air Force said.

Teixeira, a Massachusetts Air National Guardsman, was arrested April 13 in connection with the investigation of classified documents that were leaked on the internet.

(snip)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/air-force-suspends-commanders-unit-jack-teixeira-worked-rcna81697

So that case shows the "typical" process of dealing with the mishandling of documents, including "classified" ones. However when it comes to a President "mishandling", that introduces a whole other level of problems because the President "automatically" receives clearance to read anything they want at any time, with the caveat that they care enough about this country to not compromise the national interests.

However we now have one who has mishandled critical documents and didn't care for anything but himself. So given it's unprecedented, the steps we see the government going through right now will inevitably form a template for dealing with future breaches of the public trust.

How is it that an environmental laboratory can keep better track of a jar of dirt than these agencies can keep track of highly classified material? It boggles me. I'm no longer in the lab and I'm a consultant now, but we will not use data derived without a clear chain of custody. You also know you're not allowed to erase or write in pencil, you can't obliterate a correction by scribbling over it - one line only so it can still be read, etc. Pages in notebooks have to be numbered by the notebook manufacturer and hardbound, etc. I've got it! Put scientists in charge of record retention in all agencies!

You are preaching to the choir here. If we "messed up" on a worksheet, we didn't "start over", we crossed out, dated, and initialed the "mess up" and continued with the correct info.

But the issue isn't necessarily a lack of "procedures" nor a matter of "keeping better track", it's a matter of enforcing existing procedures (whether how to properly fill out a form to request info, or how to maintain chain of custody/tracking, etc.), and whether higher level staff are ignoring those procedures (as in the above Teixeira case) and failing in their roles (either by lack of care or by order). You have situations where a persistent lack of accountability among higher ups encourages lackadaisical and even rogue behavior because "nothing will be done about it".

Hell, there's a whole movie out there that literally distilled this down to one infamous phrase -

You also might recall incidents in the recent past regarding the movement of nuclear warheads from Minot, ND and a complete failure of following procedures - https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna20926465

So it's not just "chain of custody" issues with documents but even following proper procedures for the handling of literal nuclear warheads!

And essentially, that's my beef with this. And my utter incredulity that they still don't know all of what they're missing. This is classified material! Kind of more important than a jar of dirt.

And even with your post on the 4th Amendment, I still don't understand how they couldn't or wouldn't get a search warrant for Bedminster. They KNOW he took documents there. Given the fact that he lied about MaL, why the hell wouldn't they have justification to search Bedminster?

Let me just say this - during the latter part of my career, one of the training opportunities that I had was in Project Management, and one of the key concepts in that was "scope" and the problem of "scope creep". I.e., you set out to do one thing, and then keep adding on more and more and more to the point that you lose sight of your original goal and little or nothing gets done at all.

If you look at DOJ's tracking page for the many (at least 1000) J6-related cases here - https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/capitol-breach-cases

you will see some entries that say "superseding indictment", meaning that the individual was charged for something initially, but was later charged for something else.

Same here. No one "knew" that there was a grand jury that had been impaneled in FL until literally just before indictments were handed down because all of the focus was on the two grand juries in D.C. And FL was where the indictments happened, NOT in D.C. (although that may still happen there later).

There have been hints that there might be a grand jury empaneled (if not already) in NJ, so we have to stay tuned. Any "warrant" would need to come from NJ and all of the "probable cause" stuff would need to be presented at a grand jury THERE. At this late stage, it would probably be a waste of resources to attempt to raid Bedminster, particularly if they have actual evidence of the disposition of some of those documents via interviews/depositions, grand jury testimony, recordings, phone calls, texts, emails, etc. It has also been reported that 45 traveled with boxes from MAL to Bedminister, so at some point, they have to balance a "law of diminishing returns" with already having enough depth of evidence to reach an indictment and conviction.

And this is especially because the earliest reports from NARA is that some documents may have been or were destroyed, with reports that some had been "ripped up" and taped back together when turned in. In fact, I just found this that underscores the problem and my point -

White House
Meet the guys who tape Trump’s papers back together


By Annie Karni

06/10/2018 04:12 PM EDT

Solomon Lartey spent the first five months of the Trump administration working in the Old Executive Office Building, standing over a desk with scraps of paper spread out in front of him. Lartey, who earned an annual salary of $65,969 as a records management analyst, was a career government official with close to 30 years under his belt. But he had never seen anything like this in any previous administration he had worked for. He had never had to tape the president’s papers back together again.

Armed with rolls of clear Scotch tape, Lartey and his colleagues would sift through large piles of shredded paper and put them back together, he said, “like a jigsaw puzzle.” Sometimes the papers would just be split down the middle, but other times they would be torn into pieces so small they looked like confetti.

It was a painstaking process that was the result of a clash between legal requirements to preserve White House records and President Donald Trump’s odd and enduring habit of ripping up papers when he’s done with them — what some people described as his unofficial “filing system.”

Under the Presidential Records Act, the White House must preserve all memos, letters, emails and papers that the president touches, sending them to the National Archives for safekeeping as historical records. But White House aides realized early on that they were unable to stop Trump from ripping up paper after he was done with it and throwing it in the trash or on the floor, according to people familiar with the practice. Instead, they chose to clean it up for him, in order to make sure that the president wasn’t violating the law.

(snip)

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/10/trump-papers-filing-system-635164

Who was going to enforce this? The "invisible" Keebler Elf Jeff Sessions (who was AG at the time)?



Bill Barr?

We're in an unprecedented time, although we first saw WHY the law (PRA) is the way it is due to what Nixon had attempted to do.