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(6,244 posts)
31. No choice?
Sat Feb 5, 2022, 09:49 PM
Feb 2022

I am having issues with DU loading pages, so forgive me if this doesn't work right.

This is not an issue with NATO membership, if only to say that Putin doesn't want Ukraine to have any friends that will stand up for it. Ukraine wants in, and Putin took Crimea and built a bridge, so it is understandable that Ukraine is anxious for membership to happen, and Putin is not. He wants to be able to eff Ukraine, and it does not have anything to do with fear of Ukraine, but rather fear of NATO.

If he takes Ukraine, it puts HIM up against NATO countries that he can menace to his heart's content. He will STILL have a border with genuine NATO countries. The only reason he hasn't completely ringed Ukraine with troops and equipment is precisely because those NATO countries say no, and they have friends that can back them up if need be.

Perhaps Ukraine doesn't have the votes as we are talking here tonight. They wanted in before, and the process is long and slow. But, then, what is the logic of Putin stating that one of his cardinal demands on the Ukraine crisis is to keep them out of NATO? Surely this means that he knows that at some point Ukraine will have the votes for the protection it obviously needs.

If he weren't sitting there poised to invade as soon as his excuse is worded correctly, then he wouldn't have the problem he now has of NATO countries and others supplying Ukraine with weaponry and resources. That tends to happen when people don't want a takeover of Europe. It has only been, what, 77 years or so, since the end of WWII, so their memory is long and hard against anything like that happening again in a do over--same shit, different aggressor--and it may not matter if Ukraine is a member or not. They may have friends anyway.

I'm all in favor of sanctioning Russia swiftly, hard and convincingly, if it can make him stay out of Ukraine. It doesn't have to be this way, except that we have a history now of his election meddling, corruption, and previous invasion of Crimea. He's not a friendly guy to anyone situated in a country that he wants.

You have to ask yourself what 2014 and Crimea means to this situation. There was no NATO and long border complained of at that time. There was the excuse that there were Russian citizens who wanted to be annexed. As if...

Let me repeat, after a bloody and vicious WW, the fact that some countries favored taking Russia out does not mean that anyone wants to do that today. But, Russia has ill intent and has not done anything to change its persona.

And, I don't really understand your comment that Belarus and Russia would have no choice but to invade. For what reason? The fact that joining NATO would prevent them from invading? There is always a choice--peace or war--and I think that Belarus will eventually understand what they have given up.

I'm a former 98G, my friend, and I respect your service. We just disagree about what's going on here. I think we are walking right up to the door of WWIII, and it will be Putin's fault. Russian citizens don't want that, American citizens don't want that, but apparently Belarus and Putin do.

And after all that work he did with Trump, he is probably disappointed that he can't get us to back down. He should declare his exercises over, pack up and go away from the border.

that's not happening qazplm135 Jan 2022 #1
Hold Joe's beer orangecrush Jan 2022 #2
No. I don't think any of us are willing to die for Ukraine. Oneironaut Jan 2022 #3
... orangecrush Jan 2022 #4
I think the U.S. has more or less stated stopdiggin Jan 2022 #5
Ukraine joins NATO orangecrush Jan 2022 #8
They aren't joining NATO qazplm135 Jan 2022 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author stopdiggin Jan 2022 #6
Nope left-of-center2012 Jan 2022 #7
O.K. orangecrush Jan 2022 #9
I'm thinking that Putin will soon cease to exist. Frasier Balzov Jan 2022 #11
Could happen orangecrush Jan 2022 #12
I really would like an answer. Since I don't know anything about geopolitics, how about this. marie999 Jan 2022 #13
I hope your solution orangecrush Jan 2022 #14
Imaging if Latin America except for Mexico which is neutral is our enemy. marie999 Jan 2022 #15
I understand orangecrush Jan 2022 #16
He is, but are the Russian people? marie999 Jan 2022 #17
Perhaps orangecrush Jan 2022 #18
No, but they are willing to die for Russia. marie999 Jan 2022 #19
Ukraine is not Russia. orangecrush Jan 2022 #20
But if Ukraine joins NATO, then Belarus and Russia will have an enemy on their 1,200 borders. marie999 Jan 2022 #22
Marie orangecrush Jan 2022 #23
Thank you, but do not shut up and no apology. marie999 Jan 2022 #24
Thank you, Marie orangecrush Jan 2022 #25
Thank you, you are most kind. marie999 Jan 2022 #26
This message was self-deleted by its author orangecrush Jan 2022 #21
Here is a link orangecrush Jan 2022 #27
All the posturing in the world EndlessWire Feb 2022 #28
Ukraine will never get every nation in NATO to vote for it. marie999 Feb 2022 #29
No choice? EndlessWire Feb 2022 #31
Well said orangecrush Feb 2022 #30
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