Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Congratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!
Democratic Primaries
In reply to the discussion: Sanders can't win [View all]vsrazdem
(2,177 posts)114. Sanders voters did not cause Hillary the election.
http://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/did-bernie-sanders-cost-hillary-clinton-the-presidency/
There are many proximate causes for Clintons loss, and I think you can divide them into three broad categories:
The Comey Letter: Perhaps the best validated of any of the causes of her loss, there are numerous proximate causes here: her decision to use a private email server, the Benghazi witch hunt, her husbands visit with Loretta Lynch on the Phoenix airport tarmac, Lynchs failure to stop Comey, Clintons willingness to keep Huma Abedin as an aide, Abedins willingness to stay with Anthony Weiner, Weiners willingness to send sexually-explicit messages to people other than his wife, Comeys decision to send the letter to Congress, and so on.
Exogenous events: These are harder to prove, but you could make the case for any of these items outside of Clintons control costing her those 78,000 crucial votes: the medias constant focus on her email server, President Obamas failure to nominate a Supreme Court nominee thatd drive African-American or Latino turnout, people voting for third parties, the Russian disinformation campaign against her, etc.
The Clinton campaigns own actions: the failure to seriously defend Michigan and Wisconsin, the allocation of resources to stretch states instead of the Blue Wall, the focus on personal appeal (never high for Clinton ) instead of her policy positions (more popular than Trumps), calling half of Trump voters deplorable, focusing on data analytics and voter modeling instead of actually doing the hard work of turning the base out, generally losing a campaign where she was favored and had more resources.
Certainly all of those are more compelling proximate causes than Sanders, but is Sanders himself a proximate cause? Again, I dont think he is unless you assume that Clinton would have had no serious primary opposition. I dont dispute the fact that he did end up costing her some votes. And her 78,000-vote loss was certainly slim enough that it can have multiple proximate causes. Id be willing to state that Bernie Sanders might have cost Clinton the election if no serious primary challenger emerged in the counterfactual. In Pennsylvania, Clinton would have needed around a quarter of the Sanders voters who didnt vote for her to have changed their votes to win. How many of those people were among the 20% of Democrats who didnt approve of Clinton before Sanders even entered the race? My guess is most of those people werent going to vote for Clinton anyway, but I doubt we can ever be sure.
If youre a Clinton voter angry at Sanders, is that more compelling than any of the reasons listed above? I dont think so. And if you want Democrats to win back the presidency in 2020, wouldnt it make more sense to dwell on issues that had a bigger impact, and focus on the ones that you can control going forward? I could understand relitigating the 2016 primary if it had caused serious damage, but the fighting appears to be based more on rehashing old grievances than actually winning voters back into the Democratic Party. Frankly, if theres any Democrat other than Clinton deserving of Democratic ire, its President Obama. It was his neglect of the DNC (hed been told that Debbie Wasserman Schultz should be ousted as early as 2012) that led to widespread grassroots distrust of the party. It was his naiveté that Republicans would actually consider voting for Merrick Garland that prevented him from nominating an African-American or Latino nominee to the court that couldve made the Supreme Court a bigger issue for Democrats. And it was his administration that didnt stop the Comey Letter or publicize Russian interference in the election. If you want to start an intraparty squabble, its those types of mistakes that the party should seek to avoid repeating.
There are many proximate causes for Clintons loss, and I think you can divide them into three broad categories:
The Comey Letter: Perhaps the best validated of any of the causes of her loss, there are numerous proximate causes here: her decision to use a private email server, the Benghazi witch hunt, her husbands visit with Loretta Lynch on the Phoenix airport tarmac, Lynchs failure to stop Comey, Clintons willingness to keep Huma Abedin as an aide, Abedins willingness to stay with Anthony Weiner, Weiners willingness to send sexually-explicit messages to people other than his wife, Comeys decision to send the letter to Congress, and so on.
Exogenous events: These are harder to prove, but you could make the case for any of these items outside of Clintons control costing her those 78,000 crucial votes: the medias constant focus on her email server, President Obamas failure to nominate a Supreme Court nominee thatd drive African-American or Latino turnout, people voting for third parties, the Russian disinformation campaign against her, etc.
The Clinton campaigns own actions: the failure to seriously defend Michigan and Wisconsin, the allocation of resources to stretch states instead of the Blue Wall, the focus on personal appeal (never high for Clinton ) instead of her policy positions (more popular than Trumps), calling half of Trump voters deplorable, focusing on data analytics and voter modeling instead of actually doing the hard work of turning the base out, generally losing a campaign where she was favored and had more resources.
Certainly all of those are more compelling proximate causes than Sanders, but is Sanders himself a proximate cause? Again, I dont think he is unless you assume that Clinton would have had no serious primary opposition. I dont dispute the fact that he did end up costing her some votes. And her 78,000-vote loss was certainly slim enough that it can have multiple proximate causes. Id be willing to state that Bernie Sanders might have cost Clinton the election if no serious primary challenger emerged in the counterfactual. In Pennsylvania, Clinton would have needed around a quarter of the Sanders voters who didnt vote for her to have changed their votes to win. How many of those people were among the 20% of Democrats who didnt approve of Clinton before Sanders even entered the race? My guess is most of those people werent going to vote for Clinton anyway, but I doubt we can ever be sure.
If youre a Clinton voter angry at Sanders, is that more compelling than any of the reasons listed above? I dont think so. And if you want Democrats to win back the presidency in 2020, wouldnt it make more sense to dwell on issues that had a bigger impact, and focus on the ones that you can control going forward? I could understand relitigating the 2016 primary if it had caused serious damage, but the fighting appears to be based more on rehashing old grievances than actually winning voters back into the Democratic Party. Frankly, if theres any Democrat other than Clinton deserving of Democratic ire, its President Obama. It was his neglect of the DNC (hed been told that Debbie Wasserman Schultz should be ousted as early as 2012) that led to widespread grassroots distrust of the party. It was his naiveté that Republicans would actually consider voting for Merrick Garland that prevented him from nominating an African-American or Latino nominee to the court that couldve made the Supreme Court a bigger issue for Democrats. And it was his administration that didnt stop the Comey Letter or publicize Russian interference in the election. If you want to start an intraparty squabble, its those types of mistakes that the party should seek to avoid repeating.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
122 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
he doesnt get mine in the primary but if hes the Dem nom then I will vote for him...
samnsara
Jan 2020
#2
What about Liz and Pete. Should they drop out too they're running behind him. I got an idea.
vsrazdem
Jan 2020
#79
It's a tough old world when people don't share your unsupported allegations.
LanternWaste
Jan 2020
#23
I don't have a problem with people expressing their views, but what I do not understand is the
vsrazdem
Jan 2020
#104
I don't care why people stayed home or voted for Stein...maybe even Trump...if you didn't support
Demsrule86
Jan 2020
#103
The offending started way before this. This is just another bump in the road.
vsrazdem
Jan 2020
#113
You are ignoring "the script." A script that was untruthfully laid off as a "rogue employee"
The Valley Below
Jan 2020
#115
Nope. The medical records are important because he had a heart attack and he's running for the
underthematrix
Jan 2020
#65
Apparently they don't, because when I saw this first thing this morning, I mentioned this
vsrazdem
Jan 2020
#81
I am a woman. He will get my vote in the primary. And my daughter's vote, too. And my sons' votes.
CozyMystery
Jan 2020
#68
He won't get my vote, my husband's vote, my three Daughter's votes, or my son's vote...
Demsrule86
Jan 2020
#105
First of all, Bernie has never said that he thinks he is prefect. If you have that
totodeinhere
Jan 2020
#75
Don't think he can win. But he's got a lot a great ideas, and I wish he could win.
Hoyt
Jan 2020
#78
If Sanders gets the nomination (which I don't think he will) I will hold my nose and vote for him
demosincebirth
Jan 2020
#116