http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/just-how-many-bystanders-did-new-york-police-shoot/56187/

Update: The Guardian is reporting that the nine bystanders who were shot (that didn't include the shooter's target) were all shot by police, and that Jeffrey Johnson never fired on police.

The most disturbing detail about Friday's fatal shooting in Midtown Manhattan is the fact that the wounded included bystanders shot by police, and the latest news suggests stray police bullets may account for "most or all" of those wounded. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly confirmed that at least some of the injuries came from stray police bullets as cops opened fire on the gunman who aimed at them, but the police haven't said how many. Rather, that detail comes from the math reporters are doing with the number of rounds police have confirmed were fired.

Fortunately, most of the injuries were minor. As one victim who as hit in the arm told The New York Times: "I guess, you know, stuff happens."

The Times' James Barron and David Halbfinger and William K. Rashbaum introduced the arithmetic reporting: "Some of those injured might have been shot by the two police officers, who fired 16 rounds at the gunman, Jeffrey Johnson 58, said Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly — based on the number of people shot and the fact that Mr. Johnson’s gun held only eight rounds." The New York Times Metro twitter account followed up with this accounting: "Johnson had 8 bullets max. Shot 5 at [victim Steve] Ercolino, 2 left in gun, 1 unfired on ground," suggesting that the only ones Johnson fired were at his intended victim -- although that doesn't necessarily mean all of them found their mark.

The killer didn't shoot at police, but the police shot him and 9 other people. The shooter murdered his old boss and didn't fire at anyone else. It sounds like Bloomberg and the other people running NYC hate guns SO much that they don't even want their officers adequately trained.

The NYPD's handguns have triggers on their guns that are OVER 12 pounds to fire. The most important item for accuracy, after proper grip/purchase, is trigger control. It's very hard to control a sub 2 pound gun with a 13 pound trigger. The hoplophobia rampant in NYC has now almost cost 9 people their lives at the hands of New York's Finest.

I am a certified pistol instructor, and I know poor training when I see it. I've taught 70 year olds how to shoot fist sized groups rapid fire at 20 feet. This is without advanced training, just the fundamentals.

Every article I've read on the subject seems to point to a systemic problem within the NYPD with regards to firearms training. NYC has the seventh largest standing army in the world and quite possibly the poorest firearms curriculum as well.

Here's an exerpt from one such article:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/2012/02/16/the-nypd-and-the-kahr-k-9-no-substitute-for-training/

The NYPD is apparently incapable of training its officers to keep their finger off the trigger, so instead of increasing or improving their training (which would cost the department money, as well as be an acknowledgement that the training was the problem), they mandate that the gun companies provide them modified weapons.
 
I don’t dislike Glocks, I love Glocks.  I carry a Glock every day, and am in fact wearing one right now as I write this.  However, Glocks equipped with the 12-lb New York Plus trigger are an abomination. A few years ago at an editorial roundtable, the InterMedia Outdoors staff had a friendly competition involving a Glock with such a trigger.  Everyone involved reported that the pistol was nearly impossible to shoot.  G&A’s Handgun Editor Pat Sweeney (a veteran pistol competitor and Master-Class USPSA shooter) won the contest, but to do so, he used a technique he wouldn’t recommend anyone use—he was pulling the trigger with both his index fingers. A 12-lb trigger on a Glock only makes it harder to shoot fast and accurately, thereby increasing the chances that an officer’s bullet won’t end up where he or she intended.

One of the most important steps in firearms training is trigger control. The NYPD couldn't keep their recruits fingers off the trigger until ready to fire. If they can't follow basic firearms discipline, how can they be trusted to possess firearms in public? My students master the 4 rules of firearms safety within hours, why can't the NYPD do it? The only mass shooting in NYC yesterday was carried out by those hired to protect it.

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).
.....
Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.

The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:

[P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent. (p. 663 - emphases in original)
http://theacru.org/acru/harvard_study_gun_control_is_counterproductive/

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

I took some of this info from an excerpt from the ACRU website as quoted. The data speaks for itself.

I think the real issues that are at the root of recent, and for that matter most violence in general, are threefold:

1. Mental Illness
2. Poverty
3. War on Drugs

Mental illness is self explanatory. Poverty is too. The War on Drugs is a factor because of the riches that it brings to criminals.

I think attempts to lay the blame for violence in the US on firearms is lazy at best and evil at worst. Lazy, in that antis think that if we get rid of all of the firearms that much of the violence in the US will stop or be slowed in some way. Evil, in that they have another agenda that requires a disarmed populace to be successful.

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/08/guilty_plea_entered_in_murder.html

Shunick, a student at the University of Louisiana-Lafayette, went missing in the early hours of May 19 after leaving a friend's house on her bicycle. Surveillance videos captured Lavergne following her in a white Chevrolet Z71 pickup truck, changing lanes and turning corners in order to follow her.
Court documents say Lavergne, a registered sex offender, hit Shunick's bike with his truck, throwing her to the ground. Then, Lavergne either forced or persuaded Shunick to get into the vehicle and her damaged bike was loaded into the bed of the truck.
Shunick tried to use her cellphone to call for help but Lavergne, who had a knife and a semiautomatic handgun in his vehicle, threatened to stab her if she continued. Shunick sprayed mace in Lavergne's face and managed to wrestle the knife from Lavergne and stab him several times before he grabbed the knife from her.

This poor girl was taken from her friends and family by a predator of women. Go check your local sheriff's sex offender website, these violent predators are everywhere.

Michaela did not lack the will to fight, she just lacked the proper tools. I firmly believe that given her repeated attempts to take down her captor, she would have walked away from this situation were she to be lawfully armed with a personal firearm.

Mace won't do it, a knife is hard to effectively use, but no matter how small you are or how strong your attacker is a handgun can give you the leverage you need to get to safety. This is why my daughter will lawfully carry a firearm and have the proper training if she chooses to.

http://www2.alabamas13.com/news/2012/aug/16/woman-forced-shoot-intruder-protect-herself-and-ch-ar-4355974/

WALKER CO. - A Walker County woman was forced to shoot an intruder to protect herself and her children.

It happened Tuesday morning on Sellers Hollow Road in the city of Dora.

Martha Lewis says she immediately called police and woke up her daughters.

Lewis says she gave the intruder several warnings before shooting, but he wouldn't listen.

Sounds like a good shoot. I'm happy she was able to protect her family.

1. OP: Straw man / Hasty Generalization / Anecdotal Evidence fallacies presented as absolute indisputable fact. Usually the OP doesn't even converse in the thread, they are just chumming the waters and/or Google dumping.

2. The OP's ideological allies all cluck together in unison: extolling the merits of said fallacy and the evils of the opposition.

3. Said fallacy in OP is debunked for what it is and/or refuted with a cogent argument.

4. OP (rarely) and/or ideologs come back with an appeal to emotion (another logical fallacy).

5. Appeal to emotion is also seen for what it is: a fallacy.

6. Insults/bickering/various personal attacks begin. Numerous sub threads/fights/personal attacks breakout all over the thread. The few honest debaters lose hope and abandon the melee.

7. The thread loses steam and/or is locked.

8. Next OP is posted, and the cycle repeats itself ad infintium.

and grasping at straw men. Foam at the mouth, screech your screed and stomp your feet all you want. It's entertaining for the rest of us.

I laugh the hardest when you guys fail so hard on grade school English language syntax. Antis refuse to acknowledge the difference between a dependent and independent clause. How do you even tie your own shoelaces, let alone drive a car?
Keep misinterpreting the 2A, and Heller, McDonald and I will laugh all the way to the gun show!


The RW is in lockstep with each other and we Dems are divided 50/50 or maybe even 60/40. The 2A is going to be quite safe for some time. Keep on truckin'!

If you could whatever changes you thought were necessary as far as firearms/weapons laws are concerned what would you propose?

This is America, but for this experiment, you are able to rewrite the US code and/or US Constitution at will and without any repercussions. The quill is in your hands.

What changes would you make or not make.

I'll go first:

1. Re-open the NFA registry, remove the $200 tax, make it $0, and require all transfers to be completed within 2 weeks. Remove suppressors, SBR's and SBS's from NFA and no CLEO sign-off.
2. National Firearms Carry license reciprocity and make all states SHALL issue and without location restrictions.
3. I would remove all ammo and firearm import restrictions.
4. Absolute NICS enforcement, require ALL straw purchases and failed checks to be prosecuted.
5. Make sure that those adjudicated "mentally incompetent" were properly added to NICS BG check.
6. Remove the dependent clause from the 2nd Amendment to avoid further confusion among those who cannot comprehend common English language sentence syntax.
7. Allow military surplus to be sold to civilians (firearms & ammo). Military members can take home battlefield trophies and their service weapons.
8. Restoration of 2A rights for non-violent felons.
9. No plea bargaining of weapons charges, heavy minimum sentences for violent crime.
10. Legalize Marijuana and tax it to put money into inner city youth crime diversion programs and mental health awareness programs.

Three of my Cat friends. They are very photogenic. Photos taken with D7000 and off camera flash.

Kira, the serious one
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Leo, The Orange Ruffie
[img][/img]

Andrei, he always eats first
[img][/img


Chompy Cats
[img][/img]

Does anyone else subject their cats to such torture?

It didn't ban semi-autos. It didn't ban detachable magazines. It didn't bad existing "high capacity" magazines. It didn't ban ANY caliber of ammunition. It didn't even ban the guns that look scary like it promised to. It would not have prevented the Colorado theater shooting, because it sure as hell didn't stop the Columbine School shooters.

Get educated, don't let other people do your thinking for you.

For the most part it banned:
Bayonet lugs
Flash hiders
Barrel Shrouds
Adjustable or folding stocks
Grenade launcher mounts.

None of those things effect the function of the guns. It's cosmetic. They still shoot as fast as you can pull the trigger. They can still be reloaded in less than 2 seconds.

If you want to ban guns, by all means go for the gold and try to repeal the 2nd Amendment. Toying around with banning cosmetic features is absolutely banal.


Think for yourself and question authority.